Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-18-2004, 02:21 PM

Everyone agrees that there are pagan elements in Christianity, especially those introduced after it became the state religion of the Roman Empire. But there are also Jewish roots and Hellenistic Jewish elements. It is a little too simplistic to say that Christians borrowed "everything" from the pagans, although it might be a good corrective to Christians who think that what they believe must be true because it is unique.

All that said, there is a lot of good material on that site, with references and quotes.

I am surprized that the site references Drudgery Divine, a book that I have been meaning to read, which is usually cited against the proposition that early Christians borrowed everything from the mystery religions, but may be more complex:

Quote:

Drudgery Divine is an expose of the biased and flawed nature of the Protestant, anti-Catholic project of portraying early Christianity as completely non-Catholic, non-ritualist, and non-initiatory. This Protestant scholarly project was based on illegitimate approaches to comparison of early, pre-Catholic Christianity to the pagan/Hellenistic religions.

The Protestant project sought to portray Christianity as far from ritual and initiation and mystery-religion as possible, and implicitly equated Catholic practices with Hellenistic ritual, initiation, and mystery, arguing that because pure, original Christianity was not at all like Hellenistic religion, original Christianity was not at all like Catholic Christianity.

Toto · 06-18-2004, 11:44 PM

The discussion of Freke and Gandy's interpretation of Heb 8 has been split off into a separate thread

CX · 06-21-2004, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Care to offer specific criticisms of TJM and/or this site then? Or an online rebuttal? I am open minded!

Not really. I think my caveat lector leaves it to the reader to make his or her own determination. My interest these days is primarily in the Roman Cult of Mithras and its relationship to Xianity. That keeps me busy enough at the moment. Once my current project is complete I will probably turn to mystery religions in general.

Magdlyn · 06-21-2004, 01:54 PM

OK, CX, no problem. I looked around online and saw no criticism of TJM excpet from fundamentalists.

Here is Earl Doherty's review of The Jesus Mysteries, in case LGL is interested. He has a couple minor qualifications, but is mostly positive. It is from The Jesus Puzzle website, an education in itself.

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/BkrvTJM.htm

Quote:

The Jesus Mysteries Thesis, as the authors title it, presents the Gospels as originally composed to be allegories, symbols of a deeper 'truth.' Allegory, and allegorical interpretation of older writings, was in that period a common and effective device for furthering religious faith and understanding...Here they focus on the historical investigation of a Christianity which began essentially as a "gnostic" expression. (Gnosticism is the possession of secret knowledge about the nature of human life and its relation to the world, the formation of that world and explanation of its evil, and how such knowledge can be used to achieve salvation.) As a philosophical/faith movement, it was an extension, or parallel manifestation, of the ancient world's paramount philosophical-religious expression: the mystery cults...I am in full agreement with The Jesus Mysteries' basic contentions. What differences I might express are probably only a matter of emphasis...None of these mild reservations on my part compromise the essential Jesus Mysteries Thesis. Christianity began as an expression of the universal mystery ethos, within Jewish or Jewish-oriented circles, and Christ was preached as a divine being who bestowed knowledge through spiritual channels and was an agent of salvation through a myth of death and resurrection in the spiritual world.

Evoken · 06-22-2004, 06:45 AM

I just ordered, two of the recommended books here: Freke and Gandy's The Jesus Mysteries and Walter Burkert's Greek Religion.

I also ordered Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetic, saw it in the bookstore here. It seems to be a great book.

Thanks for the recommendations.

CX · 06-23-2004, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

OK, CX, no problem. I looked around online and saw no criticism of TJM excpet from fundamentalists.

I suspect:

A)Most academicians do not publish rebuttals and such on the internet. They do so in academic journals, at symposia and seminars, etc.

B)I doubt most biblical scholars, secular or otherwise are all that interested in refuting TJM. Just as very few professional academics have address doherty's work.

06-23-2004, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

OK, CX, no problem. I looked around online and saw no criticism of TJM excpet from fundamentalists.

This critique is by a liberal Christian who is a PhD history student at Cambridge University. He also does book reviews for learned journals although of rather more scholarly books than this one. He is also me.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Toto · 06-23-2004, 03:59 PM

Material on Mithras has been split out and is being consolidated with the ongoing discussion of Mithras from Pagan Similarities in a separate thread.

Magdlyn · 06-24-2004, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

This critique is by a liberal Christian who is a PhD history student at Cambridge University. He also does book reviews for learned journals although of rather more scholarly books than this one. He is also me.

Bede, I just saw your post. Thanks for letting me know. I will comment probably tomorrow.

Magdlyn · 06-25-2004, 04:58 AM

TJM:

load of old cobblers

Freke and Gandy:

Tweedledum and Tweedledee

OK, Bede, I am back. I am not a trained historian, and I did like this book when I read it three yrs ago. I am just a regular middleaged person wih a BFA and an interest in comparative mythology and mysticism, especially the perennial philosophy.

So, tell me Bede, grad student, your credentials, if you will. History student meaning what, general history or specific time period? Intended doctoral theses in what? If I have been somewhat taken in by wah-wah, I would like to know what you know about history that I do not. I am sure it is a lot.

I have read Robt Price's The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man and he lists historical critical guidelines in his preface. They are commented upon in Doherty's review of the book here:

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/BkrvSonofMan.htm

Quote:

Where there are differences or disagreements between Gospels, or within a Gospel, the principle to be applied is that the more spectacular version is almost certainly inauthentic, an authorial enlargement upon the simpler version.

...positions, etc. found in Jesus’ mouth that can be identified as existing within contemporary or later areas, such as Jewish rabbinical or Hellenistic expression, or subsequent Christian interests and practice, cannot be safely attributed to him. Price goes further and points out that the criterion itself is a self-defeating method:

“The trouble with the criterion of dissimilarity is the basic operating assumption of the form-critical method: the early Christians passed down nothing they did not find usable. Indeed, the material was passed down via the usage. This means that every individual saying or anecdote represents some aspect of the early Christian movement. None is simply an objective datum. Every single one thus fails, and must fail, the criterion of dissimilarity.�?

Joining its fall by the wayside is the so-called criterion of embarrassment. Even those sayings or depictions which any given evangelist might have considered embarrassing and yet has preserved, must have come to him through the usage channel, and if so was thus acceptable to those who first passed it on (or created it)...

rejection of the supernatural element because of a commitment to philosophical naturalism. While I see no impediment to defending such a commitment, Price points out that the accusation is really misplaced. All science and even history works according to the principle of “methodological atheism.�? That is, it cannot introduce a deus ex machina into the plot; it cannot allow for “surprises�? or else everything becomes chaotic

Another criterion is the principle of “biographical analogy.�? If everything about Jesus in the Gospels conforms to the period’s widespread “Mythic Hero Archetype,�? there is no secular information left to tie into the fabric of history. Finally, if historical evidence contradicts the Gospel accounts, reliability must lie with the former.

Do you accept these criteria? Did you apply them in your critique?

To comment upon your first paragrpah, I admit I do not know what a a "peer reviewed paper" or "scholarly monograph" is. Also Toto said, F&G:

Quote:

are not part of the academic guild...[and] they have not necessarily evaluated their sources the way a professional historian would, and they do not participate in the give and take of scholarly debate.

What is the "academic guild?" Do you belong to it? What kind of credentials does one need to get into it? How do historians "evaluate their sources?" Do they apply the criteria Price lists above? What is this "give and take?" (I imagine conferences in venerable stone floored halls of academia, or cozy yet cranky chats in book-lined offices with cups of tea and small fires burning on the grate.)

Finally I take it you are a Christian. Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior, died an actual death to save your from sin? You said this:

Quote:

...they are claiming J. D. Crossan, R. T. France, Raymond Brown, John P. Meier, Michael Grant, Robin Lane Fox etc etc are not serious scholars. We (sic) might not agree with all of these guys (I mean, the last two are atheists) but we (sic) certainly consider them serious scholars.

How do you think your beliefs cloud your perceptions of Bibical criticism? If you are orthodox, and F&G are gnostics, are you confident you can objectively criticize their work? Why?

I am sure your comments will help a lot of us newbies in the field of Biblical historical criticism.

TIA, Magdlyn

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06-18-2004, 11:44 PM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The discussion of Freke and Gandy's interpretation of Heb 8 has been split off into a separate thread

06-22-2004, 06:45 AM	#15
Evoken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: ............. Posts: 2,914	I just ordered, two of the recommended books here: Freke and Gandy's The Jesus Mysteries and Walter Burkert's Greek Religion. I also ordered Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetic, saw it in the bookstore here. It seems to be a great book. Thanks for the recommendations.

06-23-2004, 03:59 PM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Material on Mithras has been split out and is being consolidated with the ongoing discussion of Mithras from Pagan Similarities in a separate thread.

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