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Old 12-28-2012, 10:00 PM   #11
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Given Earl Doherty's agreement with my judgment of this thread, I expect that this thread will be locked and moved to Elsewhere, and I will delay further contributions until later or never.
If the mods closed and locked a thread because its primary expression was personal attacks against another, a good number of them would end up on the scrap heap. Besides, a well-known contributor's conduct in regard to his review of a book which is a regular topic of discussion on FRDB, especially when it is as blatant as Don's latest, is not irrelevant to that discussion. And if there is another regular topic of discussion here, it is the personal prejudice directed against mythicists and mythicism by people like yourself, Abe. Now you want to cut that off?

I suspect you are trying to eliminate a thread which threatens to have some negative effect on Don's image, as well as to avoid having to answer my question: do you think Don's approach to his Amazon review is legitimate in that context? Why not keep the thread on track by answering that reasonable question?

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Old 12-28-2012, 10:03 PM   #12
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GakuseiDon was on self ban, last I knew, which means he is not a current member, so maybe this thread can live on.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:24 PM   #13
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GakuseiDon was on self ban, last I knew, which means he is not a current member, so maybe this thread can live on.
Still not willing to answer my question, Abe? Was Don's Amazon review a legitimate exercise? If you are so eager to defend Don against me, why are you not eager to defend his review?

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Old 12-28-2012, 10:29 PM   #14
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While I do not appreciate the general tenor of Earl's ad hominem throughout this thread, he does have a reasonable grievance against GakuseiDon. The particular posting Don put up on Amazon, not containing a review but what amounted to a pre-release endorsement of an upcoming Carrier book was not a reasonable thing to do. If one posts a review it should reflect the poster's work of criticism, not merely rehearse statements by Carrier for which one has to go to Don's accumulated anti-Doherty grievances web page to find links to.

I really don't understand why GakuseiDon has expended so much of his energy doggedly attempting to damage Earl's work. There seems to be no collegial spirit in his efforts. Perhaps GakuseiDon could give some insight into his persistence regarding Earl and his work. Has he been so attentive to any other writers or has he dedicated his major efforts to Earl?
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:36 PM   #15
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Well, GDon is up to his old tricks. He has finally published a review of my Jesus: Neither God Nor Man on Amazon, under the moniker of "Don Gakusei". Instead of presenting his own analysis, he gleefully channels Richard Carrier's recent dubious opinion that JNGNM is "90% speculation."...

Since when does a reviewer of a Hollywood film, for example, write a review in which he quotes only other reviewers’ opinions of it, particularly negative opinions—and especially off-the-cuff remarks? What newspaper hosting such a reviewer would ever let such a travesty be published, and how long would the latter remain in his job?
No one likes a negative review, but it comes with the territory.

Don's review was light on specifics, but I think that was intentional: He appears to have wanted to give his overall opinion, along with giving it (perhaps) added legitimacy by quoting a scholar. Don stated that he agreed with Carrier's assessment that your work is not scholarly and is highly speculative, so he wasn't just dragging out another person's opinion. But Don did provide a link to his own analysis, a review longer than what Amazon.com would allow, and which by implication contains specific objections and examples supposedly supporting his overall negative opinion. It is an 800+ page book, so his approach actually makes good sense.

Don also provided readers with a sense of some of the content of the book, and who might benefit from it (in his opinion), and he recommended an upcoming work he thinks may be better even though it may support your primary conclusion.

All of these things are what people do when they review books on Amazon.com. I don't see anything way out of line here. It may not be the most helpful review since it lacked specifics (that reduces the power of its influence), but it appears that he was telling it the way he sees it, and not just the way Carrier sees it.
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:40 AM   #16
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It seems to me my previous message has not been noticed by some of you:
Gakuseidon has posted on this blog and explained further his position on this issue.
Cordially, Bernard
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Old 12-29-2012, 05:57 AM   #17
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Because the statement is useful only as a personal attack against GakuseiDon, which makes sense as part of Earl Doherty's continuing pattern of personal attacks against GakuseiDon. That has been Earl Doherty's central point of this thread, and the thread contributes nothing else.
If you are capable of reading English, you will see that this thread is meant as a personal attack against GDon, for his disreputable tactic in posting as his Amazon review of my book the opinion of someone else, which is hardly a legitimate way to review a book. Are you incapable of understanding that? (So far you haven't even addressed it.)

The fact that that opinion was negative is an even blacker mark against him, because it shows that his purpose was simply to exercise his longstanding vendetta against me. If Don had referred to that comment by Carrier in a DB thread about the book, it might have been another matter. But for him to think that he can pass off doing that on an Amazon review which is supposed to present his own opinion based on a reading of my book himself, is moral turpitude and reveals his true character. And I will continue to level personal criticism of him on that basis, here and elsewhere, as has Neil Godfrey.

I am in no way embarrassed by any of my posts. It is Don who should be embarrassed, but we long know that he is incapable of that. As, apparently, are you. And what do you mean by this:

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You are essentially saying that the accuracy of an author's claims is not as important as the respective ideological camp.
Which "author" are you referring to? Whether it's me or Don, your observation is nonsensical, and I don't know where you derive it. Don in his review did not address the claims of either me or himself. He quoted someone else's opinion, which not even he put forward in his own website review of the book. He simply seized on Carrier's comment and decided to run with it because it was detrimental to me, regardless of whether he might have agreed with it. (He also conveyed the impression that his "this is not scholarship" comment was or would have been the opinion of Carrier as well, which is not the case.) That's despicable, and once again reveals his true colors.

And what does Acharya have to do with it? Now it is you--alluding to Don's own obsession with pygmies--who is seizing on an irrelevant even if undoubtedly unfounded viewpoint in Acharya's first edition of her first book and used it (as Don has fixatedly tried to use it over the years) to discredit everything else she wrote then and since. That's also an invalid process and also despicable. And because I refused to address that secondary aspect of her first book as irrelevant to the central case being made in it, you think to taint me by association. The two of you (along with a few others) are neither legitimate scholars or honest reviewers, and only the rules of this board prevent me from directing more colorful language in your direction.

Earl Doherty
Mr. Doherty, the way I see it, GakuseiDon has done more to help you than anyone else. You are an ideological author, not a credentialed scholar, but GakuseiDon has treated you as though you are a credentialed scholar, and he has read and reviewed two of your books more analytically and comprehensively than absolutely anyone else. He of course put those very full reviews on his website. His Amazon review is not a full review, and it is not obliged to contain anything more than his opinion, but he supplied more: an opinion of a credentialed expert in the same topic of study. That would be my main concern when buying a book: does this book reflect expert opinion? And GakuseiDon was actually being generous. Richard Carrier's quote was gentle. GakuseiDon could have instead supplied a quote from Bart Ehrman, that your book "is filled with so many unguarded and undocumented statements and claims, and so many misstatements of fact, that it would take a 2400 page book to deal with all the problems."

Now about Acharya S. Again, I suggest that you kick her out of your wagon circle. GakuseiDon's main point of ridicule is the ancient pygmy civilization, but my favorite point of ridicule is the long list of core specifics that the ancient Mesoamerican god Quetzalcoatl shares with Jesus, sourcing entirely from a handful of modern tertiary sources that make the same claim. This problem is not exceptional to Acharya S's literature. This is one of a significant set of problems distributed on almost every page in every single one of her books--citing modern tertiary sources for bizarre extraordinary claims.

Fortunately for Acharya S, you have galloped to the defense of her preference for modern tertiary sources and nothing else as evidence for extraordinary claims.
There are those who have expressed some uncertainty about the scholarship which originally presented some of the subject matter dealt with in this book [Christ Conspiracy], since much of it comes from the 19th and early 20th centuries. But there is a prominent reason why today's researcher is inevitably thrown back on this early period of investigation. The so-called History of Religions School was a feature of that period, represented by such luminaries as Reitzenstein, Bousset and Cumont, and other, less famous scholars.
This was written in 1999, and it remains on your website. God knows why.
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:19 AM   #18
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Don’t let em get you down Earl.

You rawk.

Seriously.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:53 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ted
No one likes a negative review, but it comes with the territory.

Don's review was light on specifics, but I think that was intentional: He appears to have wanted to give his overall opinion, along with giving it (perhaps) added legitimacy by quoting a scholar. Don stated that he agreed with Carrier's assessment that your work is not scholarly and is highly speculative, so he wasn't just dragging out another person's opinion. But Don did provide a link to his own analysis, a review longer than what Amazon.com would allow, and which by implication contains specific objections and examples supposedly supporting his overall negative opinion. It is an 800+ page book, so his approach actually makes good sense.

Don also provided readers with a sense of some of the content of the book, and who might benefit from it (in his opinion), and he recommended an upcoming work he thinks may be better even though it may support your primary conclusion.

All of these things are what people do when they review books on Amazon.com. I don't see anything way out of line here. It may not be the most helpful review since it lacked specifics (that reduces the power of its influence), but it appears that he was telling it the way he sees it, and not just the way Carrier sees it.
Then why quote Carrier at all? Why make the central point of his "review" a trumpeting of someone else's remarks on one aspect, as he sees it, of the book: its length? Would Carrier himself have approved? Why fail to note that Carrier has acknowledged that the first (shorter) edition of the book was instrumental in bringing him to a mythicist position himself? And to note that he still makes reference to myself and my central analysis of the theory a part of his own presentation?

If Don is going to associate Carrier's opinion with his own (that the book does not constitute "scholarship"--a ridiculous and heavily prejudiced piece of blanket hostility which places Don in the same camp as anti-mythicism fanatics like James McGrath), why does he not make it clear that Carrier's comment does not encompass an opinion that my work does not constitute scholarship in any way shape or form? Why imply that Carrier's view supports his own declaration that no scholarship is involved, and that Carrier's upcoming book--which no one, much less Don himself, has of not yet read--is of a categorically superior nature?

Sorry, Ted, but Don deserves all the criticism he gets. And you are placing yourself in the same category of historicist supporters (often believers) who are motivated not by honest analysis of mythicism or mythicists but your own biased hostility against the very idea and anyone who proposes it.

Yes, Ted, negative opinion and attacks come with the territory, but that doesn't make them honest and unbiased.

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Old 12-29-2012, 09:14 AM   #20
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Mr. Doherty, the way I see it, GakuseiDon has done more to help you than anyone else. You are an ideological author, not a credentialed scholar, but GakuseiDon has treated you as though you are a credentialed scholar, and he has read and reviewed two of your books more analytically and comprehensively than absolutely anyone else.
Just because I don't have the acceptable credentials to those whose own credentials make their opinions suspect for bias and an obvious appeal-to-authority of 'received wisdom', does not make me "an ideological author." Besides, neither does Don himself have the proper credentials by your standard (he occasionally dismisses himself as a rank amateur with not even an understanding of the ancient languages involved), so I guess that automatically makes him an ideological author and one whose opinions about mythicism and myself have no value and should not be trusted, right? You can't have it both ways, Abe.

And my point has long been that Don, far from doing me a favor, has done his best to discredit me down to the color of socks I wear, and regularly indulges in tactics which are questionable to say the least. His Amazon review is only the latest example. And yes, he continues to point people to his website review of JNGNM, without noting or showing any cognizance of the fact, there or on a DB like this one, that my own rebuttal to that review completely shredded it.

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