Sheshbazzar

We all have our reasonings, and our reasons. In my case, as I have made clear, I do not trust these texts as they stand, to represent the views or the religion of the original Paul, I cannot, and I never will.
Thus I'll await the finding of earlier and better exemplars. If they are located, my views will be vindicated, if not, then yet will I die with the integrity of my conscience and my convictions.
Until that day, my conscience compels me to make it plain on which side of this fence it is that I stand. I do not attempt to straddle it, and I do not hop from side to side with every breeze.
Only posted to indicate my personal support for, and general alliance with DCH's observations.
My views are not derived from his, but were independently reached.

archibald

From what, then, were your views derived? I'm not asking for a thesis. Just a brief summary of the scenario you support, and a list of the main reasons why you think it's correct. A short paragraph, nothing longer than the above post, would do, if you have already explained it (which I presume you have) and I have not seen it.

aa5874

Your assertion that a theory is fringe is NOT a valid argument it is just an OBSERVATION.

It is a complete waste of time using "fringe theory" among people who have accepted a "fringe position" called ATHEISM.

ATHEISTS DETEST the idea that "fringe" inherently signifies being wrong.

You must understand that ALL theories when FIRST introduced are LIKELY to be "fringe".

archibald

This seems to be a poor analogy. There is not one scrap of objective evidence for God which stands up under investigation. If there were some new evidence or assertions, I would be asking for the exact same thing, that if possible they be subjected to detailed scrutiny, preferably by those with most academic knowledge, in that case scientists instead of historians and language experts.

It's also a straw man, since I did not say that anything has to be signified as inherently wrong because of a lack of peer review.

DCHindley

I'm not sure whether I am being lumped with MJ theories. Actually, I do accept that a HJ once existed and was likely a royal claimant or promoted the idea of the establishment of Jewish hegonemy. I would propose that the interpolator was a member of a faction of the "Jesus movement" that had radically reinterpreted his significance into that of a redeemer figure, much like the way some Jews reinterpreted the significance of their ancestral God to the status of an ignorant Demiurge, unable to see the nature of reality, becoming Gnostics.

Of all the books, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians are by far the hardest, as they each seem to have been slapped together from several sources. Chapter 15 of 1 Cor is not an easy one to analyze. I'll try to do so below, examining vss 1-19, with suspected interpolations in brackets and bolded. The problems with interpolations is that something may be excised from the original text to make way for them. The other problem is that if the editor has access to a variety of sources (various letters, virtue & vice lists, household codes, etc, not necessarily all from the hand of "Paul") he may pop a fragment of one of these sources into the original text. All we know is that there appear to be seams and other aporia (odd things that give readers reason to pause) that interrupt arguments or accounts. The bracketed text below might not be exactly match the bracketed text in the files on Ben's website (created in 1997 and revised in 2003).

BGT 1 Corinthians 15:1 Γνωρίζω δὲ ὑμῖν, ἀδελφοί, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον ὃ εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν, ὃ καὶ παρελάβετε, ἐν ᾧ καὶ ἑστήκατε,	RSV 1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand,
2 δι᾽ οὗ καὶ σῴζεσθε, τίνι λόγῳ εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν εἰ κατέχετε, ἐκτὸς εἰ μὴ εἰκῇ ἐπιστεύσατε.	2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast -- unless you believed in vain.
3 παρέδωκα γὰρ ὑμῖν ἐν πρώτοις, ὃ καὶ παρέλαβον, [ὅτι Χριστὸς ἀπέθανεν ὑπὲρ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν κατὰ τὰς γραφὰς	3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, [that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,
4 καὶ ὅτι ἐτάφη καὶ ὅτι ἐγήγερται τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ τρίτῃ κατὰ τὰς γραφὰς	4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
5 καὶ ὅτι ὤφθη Κηφᾷ εἶτα τοῖς δώδεκα•	5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 ἔπειτα ὤφθη ἐπάνω πεντακοσίοις ἀδελφοῖς ἐφάπαξ, ἐξ ὧν οἱ πλείονες μένουσιν ἕως ἄρτι, τινὲς δὲ ἐκοιμήθησαν•	6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
7 ἔπειτα ὤφθη Ἰακώβῳ εἶτα τοῖς ἀποστόλοις πᾶσιν•	7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8 ἔσχατον δὲ πάντων ὡσπερεὶ τῷ ἐκτρώματι ὤφθη κἀμοί.]	8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.]
9 Ἐγὼ γάρ εἰμι ὁ ἐλάχιστος τῶν ἀποστόλων ὃς οὐκ εἰμὶ ἱκανὸς καλεῖσθαι ἀπόστολος, διότι ἐδίωξα τὴν ἐκκλησίαν τοῦ θεοῦ•	9 For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 [χάριτι δὲ θεοῦ εἰμι ὅ εἰμι, καὶ ἡ χάρις αὐτοῦ ἡ εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ κενὴ ἐγενήθη], ἀλλὰ περισσότερον αὐτῶν πάντων ἐκοπίασα, οὐκ ἐγὼ δὲ ἀλλὰ ἡ χάρις τοῦ θεοῦ [ἡ] σὺν ἐμοί.	10 [But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain.] On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.
11 [εἴτε οὖν ἐγὼ εἴτε ἐκεῖνοι, οὕτως κηρύσσομεν καὶ οὕτως ἐπιστεύσατε.	11 [Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
12 Εἰ δὲ Χριστὸς κηρύσσεται ὅτι ἐκ νεκρῶν ἐγήγερται], πῶς λέγουσιν ἐν ὑμῖν τινες ὅτι ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν οὐκ ἔστιν;	12 Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead], how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 εἰ δὲ ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν οὐκ ἔστιν, [οὐδὲ Χριστὸς ἐγήγερται•	13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, [then Christ has not been raised;
14 εἰ δὲ Χριστὸς οὐκ ἐγήγερται], κενὸν ἄρα [καὶ] τὸ κήρυγμα ἡμῶν, κενὴ καὶ ἡ πίστις ὑμῶν•	14 if Christ has not been raised], then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15 εὑρισκόμεθα δὲ καὶ ψευδομάρτυρες τοῦ θεοῦ, ὅτι ἐμαρτυρήσαμεν κατὰ τοῦ θεοῦ [ὅτι ἤγειρεν τὸν Χριστόν, ὃν οὐκ ἤγειρενι] εἴπερ ἄρα νεκροὶ οὐκ ἐγείροντα.	15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God [that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise]. If it is true that the dead are not raised.
16 εἰ γὰρ νεκροὶ οὐκ ἐγείρονται, [οὐδὲ Χριστὸς ἐγήγερται•	16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised.
17 εἰ δὲ Χριστὸς οὐκ ἐγήγερται, ματαία ἡ πίστις ὑμῶν, ἔτι ἐστὲ ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν,	17 If Christ has not been raised], your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
18 ἄρα καὶ οἱ κοιμηθέντες ἐν Χριστῷ ἀπώλοντο.	18 Then those also who have fallen asleep [in Christ] have perished.
19 εἰ ἐν τῇ ζωῇ ταύτῃ [ἐν Χριστῷ] ἠλπικότες ἐσμὲν μόνον, ἐλεεινότεροι πάντων ἀνθρώπων ἐσμέν.	19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.

The grammar of the Greek may be affected in places by the omissions, but it is not as often as one might think. The editor for the most part seemed to add things. Making a few small adjustments to the English translation due to the omissions of the bolded text, you get this:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved [on the Day of the LORD] if you hold it fast -- lest you believed [in God's promises] in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received [i.e., I haven't changed it]. …

9 For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 … On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them [i.e., apostles], though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me. …

12 … How can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, … 14 … then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified in God's behalf, … if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, … 17 … your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep … have perished (lit. destroyed themselves). 19 If for we have been hoping in this life only …, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Vss 9 & 10 seem to be from another source explaining Paul's status as an "apostle", which I take as referring to Jewish representatives who take upon themselves the task of bringing freewill offerings from Jews and gentiles abroad back to Jerusalem to be dedicated to God in some way. The term as Paul uses it does not carry the same meaning as it does in the radicalized Jesus movement, where it lacks this financial overtone. What he had delivered, it appears, concerned resurrection from the dead.

Omitting vss 20-28 (Christ as the opposite to Adam), vss 30-32a (this is the editor venting), vss 45-50 (again the Adam opposed to Christ theme), vss 56-57 (a gloss interpreting vs 55, a quotation of scripture), what is left is vss 29, 32b ("If the dead are not raised ...") - 44 (a discussion about the nature of resurrection and the resurrected body), vss 51-55 (the way the resurrection will occur), ending with vs 58 "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the lord (i.e., he is talking to household slaves working for their master], knowing that in LORD [a circumlocution for YHVH, the supreme lord] your labor [in this life] is not in vain."

But that is just me ...

DCH

Sheshbazzar

In my view the authentic Paul was a religiously consientious Jewish envoy to the various synagogues of the dispora, ethically resisting the idea held and taught by less educated Jews that it was nescessary for Gentile believers ( the ger toshavim > 'strangers within the gates') to undergo circumcision or to follow strictures of the Laws of Moses as though they were also Jews, in order to find grace and acceptance, and a place in ha'Olam ha'Ba > 'The World to Come'.
In his teaching and argument, (based firmly upon the Law and the words of The Prophets,) it being fully sufficient for the gentiles to put their faith in, and to call upon the name of the Elohim Abraham, even as Abram did, whom while yet being in uncircumcision, received the calling and the promises. (Abram himself being of the Gentiles, and of the Chaldeans by birth)

The original Paul's preaching was nothing more than that gentile believers were subject to no more, and were to submit to no more, than to the 'Noachide laws', and to whatever gentile laws pertained to the maintenance of justice and of peaceful public order.

That was the substance and the sum of the original Paul's preaching, and was what was advocated and was supported by the collective learned elders in Yerushalaim.
Almost everything pertaining to any vision or a 'gospel of 'christ' was interpolated and added on by those later other pseudo-'Paul's' engaged in the promotion and the propaganda of an insane religious cult.

Unlike DCH I give absolutely no credience to there ever being the existence of a living, breathing person behind the christological mythology.
Personally I accept somewhat less than 20% of the entire NT's texts as being of any authenticity at all. That means I find over 80% of these NT texts consist of nothing more than a hodge-podge of midrashic, legendary, and 'sayings' materials crudely cobbled together into the form of a Greek tragedy.
The contents and claims of these religious writings are almost entirely fabricated, are not valid as history, and have no bearing upon reality.

That is my view, and is my personal opinion, one based upon a lifetime of Biblical and historical studies.
It is the only conclusion that I can honestly endorse.

aa5874

ORDINARY people can EXAMINE evidence. You don't need to be a rocket Scientist or have a PhD to read a book or examine evidence.

Ordinary people examine evidence everyday.

Agnostics Must understand that people here can read and understand books of antiquity.

DCHindley

Here is the rest of chapter 15 (vss 20-58). It is a little different than I said above, maybe because I had to rush to make a doctor's appointment.

20 Νυνὶ δὲ Χριστὸς ἐγήγερται ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀπαρχὴ τῶν κεκοιμημένων.	20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 ἐπειδὴ γὰρ δι᾽ ἀνθρώπου θάνατος, καὶ δι᾽ ἀνθρώπου ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν.	21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
22 ὥσπερ γὰρ ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ πάντες ἀποθνῄσκουσιν, οὕτως καὶ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζῳοποιηθήσονται.	22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 Ἕκαστος δὲ ἐν τῷ ἰδίῳ τάγματι• ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός, ἔπειτα οἱ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ,	23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
24 εἶτα τὸ τέλος, ὅταν παραδιδῷ τὴν βασιλείαν τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρί, ὅταν καταργήσῃ πᾶσαν ἀρχὴν καὶ πᾶσαν ἐξουσίαν καὶ δύναμιν.	24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 δεῖ γὰρ αὐτὸν βασιλεύειν ἄχρι οὗ θῇ πάντας τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας αὐτοῦ.	25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 ἔσχατος ἐχθρὸς καταργεῖται ὁ θάνατος•	26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 πάντα γὰρ ὑπέταξεν ὑπὸ τοὺς πόδας αὐτοῦ. ὅταν δὲ εἴπῃ ὅτι πάντα ὑποτέτακται, δῆλον ὅτι ἐκτὸς τοῦ ὑποτάξαντος αὐτῷ τὰ πάντα.	27 "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him.
28 ὅταν δὲ ὑποταγῇ αὐτῷ τὰ πάντα, τότε [καὶ] αὐτὸς ὁ υἱὸς ὑποταγήσεται τῷ ὑποτάξαντι αὐτῷ τὰ πάντα, ἵνα ᾖ ὁ θεὸς [τὰ] πάντα ἐν πᾶσιν.	28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son (he) himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.
29 Ἐπεὶ τί ποιήσουσιν οἱ βαπτιζόμενοι ὑπὲρ τῶν νεκρῶν; εἰ ὅλως νεκροὶ οὐκ ἐγείρονται, τί καὶ βαπτίζονται ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν;	29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
30 Τί καὶ ἡμεῖς κινδυνεύομεν πᾶσαν ὥραν;	30 Why am I in peril every hour? 31 καθ᾽ ἡμέραν ἀποθνῄσκω, νὴ τὴν ὑμετέραν καύχησιν, [ἀδελφοί,] ἣν ἔχω ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.
33 μὴ πλανᾶσθε• φθείρουσιν ἤθη χρηστὰ ὁμιλίαι κακαί.	33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals." 34 ἐκνήψατε δικαίως καὶ μὴ ἁμαρτάνετε, ἀγνωσίαν γὰρ θεοῦ τινες ἔχουσιν, πρὸς ἐντροπὴν ὑμῖν λαλῶ.
35 Ἀλλὰ ἐρεῖ τις• πῶς ἐγείρονται οἱ νεκροί; ποίῳ δὲ σώματι ἔρχονται;	35 But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
36 ἄφρων, σὺ ὃ σπείρεις, οὐ ζῳοποιεῖται ἐὰν μὴ ἀποθάνῃ•	36 You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
37 καὶ ὃ σπείρεις, οὐ τὸ σῶμα τὸ γενησόμενον σπείρεις ἀλλὰ γυμνὸν κόκκον εἰ τύχοι σίτου ἤ τινος τῶν λοιπῶν•	37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
38 ὁ δὲ θεὸς δίδωσιν αὐτῷ σῶμα καθὼς ἠθέλησεν, καὶ ἑκάστῳ τῶν σπερμάτων ἴδιον σῶμα.	38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
39 Οὐ πᾶσα σὰρξ ἡ αὐτὴ σὰρξ ἀλλὰ ἄλλη μὲν ἀνθρώπων, ἄλλη δὲ σὰρξ κτηνῶν, ἄλλη δὲ σὰρξ πτηνῶν, ἄλλη δὲ ἰχθύων.	39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
40 καὶ σώματα ἐπουράνια, καὶ σώματα ἐπίγεια• ἀλλὰ ἑτέρα μὲν ἡ τῶν ἐπουρανίων δόξα, ἑτέρα δὲ ἡ τῶν ἐπιγείων.	40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 ἄλλη δόξα ἡλίου, καὶ ἄλλη δόξα σελήνης, καὶ ἄλλη δόξα ἀστέρων• ἀστὴρ γὰρ ἀστέρος διαφέρει ἐν δόξῃ.	41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 οὕτως καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις τῶν νεκρῶν. σπείρεται ἐν φθορᾷ, ἐγείρεται ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ•	42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
43 σπείρεται ἐν ἀτιμίᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δόξῃ• σπείρεται ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δυνάμει•	43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν. Εἰ ἔστιν σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἔστιν καὶ πνευματικόν.	44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 οὕτως καὶ γέγραπται• ἐγένετο ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν, ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζῳοποιοῦν.	45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 ἀλλ᾽ οὐ πρῶτον τὸ πνευματικὸν ἀλλὰ τὸ ψυχικόν, ἔπειτα τὸ πνευματικόν.	46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
47 ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος ἐκ γῆς χοϊκός, ὁ δεύτερος ἄνθρωπος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ.	47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 οἷος ὁ χοϊκός, τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ χοϊκοί, καὶ οἷος ὁ ἐπουράνιος, τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ ἐπουράνιοι•	48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.
49 καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ, φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου.	49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 Τοῦτο δέ φημι, ἀδελφοί, ὅτι σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομῆσαι οὐ δύναται οὐδὲ ἡ φθορὰ τὴν ἀφθαρσίαν κληρονομεῖ.	50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 ἰδοὺ μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω• πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα,	51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 ἐν ἀτόμῳ, ἐν ῥιπῇ ὀφθαλμοῦ, ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ σάλπιγγι• σαλπίσει γὰρ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀλλαγησόμεθα.	52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 Δεῖ γὰρ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν.	53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
54 ὅταν δὲ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀθανασίαν, τότε γενήσεται ὁ λόγος ὁ γεγραμμένος• κατεπόθη ὁ θάνατος εἰς νῖκος.	54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ νῖκος; ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον;	55 "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?"
56 τὸ δὲ κέντρον τοῦ θανάτου ἡ ἁμαρτία, ἡ δὲ δύναμις τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ νόμος•	56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57 τῷ δὲ θεῷ χάρις τῷ διδόντι ἡμῖν τὸ νῖκος διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.	57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Ὥστε, ἀδελφοί μου ἀγαπητοί, ἑδραῖοι γίνεσθε, ἀμετακίνητοι, περισσεύοντες ἐν τῷ ἔργῳ τοῦ κυρίου πάντοτε, εἰδότες ὅτι ὁ κόπος ὑμῶν οὐκ ἔστιν κενὸς ἐν κυρίῳ.	58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the master, knowing that in LORD your labor is not in vain.

Just to dispel the suspicion that I am just stripping out Christ related text, I utilize two general rules:

1) The original writer ("Paul") always paired a definite article (equivalent to English "the" but not always used in the translation) with the word θεὸς (theos), and κυρίος ("kurios") when used is not paired with a definite article, serving as a circumlocution for the divine name.

2) The interpolator, most of the time, does not pair theos with the definite article, and always pairs the definite article with kurios.

Usually	Original	Usually	Interpolation
Theos with definite article	Kurios without definite article	Theos without definite article	Kurios with definite article
15:9 (authentic)
15:10b (authentic)		15:10a (interpolation)
15:15a 2x (authentic)
15:24 (interpolation!)
15:28 (interpolation!)
			15:31 (interpolation)
		15:34 (interpolation)
15:38 (authentic)
		15:50 (interpolation)
15:57a (authentic)			15:57b (interpolation)
	15:58b (authentic)		15:58a (authentic, but referencing an earthly lord)

The two anomolous cases of theos with the definite article at 15:24 & 28, in the middle of a range of verses that I would identify as an interpolation, suggest to me that vss 20-28 is another source used by the interpolator.

Whatever, it's late ....

DCH

RParvus

DCH,

Thank you for this. You have undertaken a worthwhile project.

As you may be aware, a few others, using different guidelines, have attempted to uncover the original layer in the Paulines, e.g. Robert Scott in his 1909 “The Pauline Epistles – A Critical Study;” Henri Delafosse (Joseph Turmel) in his 1928 “Les Ecrits de Saint Paul; ” Robert Martyr Hawkins in his 1943 “The Recovery of the Historical Paul.” It would be interesting to see if there are any parts of the Paulines where all or most of you reach the same conclusions.

archibald

Quite honestly, I have no idea how that post is related to anything I said.

But then, I have this sneaking suspicion that you may be 'Dejuror' from another forum which I used to contribute to (Rationalskepticism), and if that is the case, I won't be tempted to engage with you. Sorry. Tell me if I am wrong is guessing what i just guessed.