Peter Kirby

Credible evidence can come from documents that were written with religious purposes.

best wishes,
Peter Kirby

Toto

Credible evidence can be derived from documents written with a religious purpose. But one would have to demonstrate the circumstances that indicate credibility.

I don't think there is anything much more than common sense here. If George Lukas makes a film about Luke Skywalker, no one takes that as evidence that there was a historic Luke Skywalker, to take a pretty far out example. No one reads the Illiad and assumes that Hera and Aphrodite actually intervened in history. And there might have been a Helen, but you would need more than an ancient legend to prove her existence.

Rick Sumner

Why were 1 and 2 Macc. written? More importantly, following from that, how are they generally read? Very little in them can be corroborated--there's Josephus, of course, but he was reading the same books we are, and can hardly be considered independent testimony. Yet they are nonetheless considered a more or less accurate account.

Whether or not a text is written with a religious purpose is substantially less important than what that text says, and ultimately not terribly relevant in assessing the credibility of a witness. Suggesting otherwise does little more than provide an easy ad hoc, to alleviate the burden in future discussion.

And comparing media today with that in antiquity is laughable. Besides which, even ancient fiction can be used as credible testimony. Look at Seneca's accounts of crucifixion, which provide some of the most graphic descriptions. Despite some corroboration in Josephus, much of what Seneca has to say goes unverified. It's nonetheless accepted as more or less genuine--art imitating life, so to speak.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Toto

"More or less - but rather less than more" to quote Gilbert & Sullivan.

I think this topic has been discussed to death before. It isn't so much a religious purpose, as whether there is any intent to record history, combined with any capability of reporting accurate history. Much of Josephus needs to be read with a truckload of salt - I don't think that any reputable historians believe his story about Alexander dropping by the Temple and sacrificing to YHWH.

I see no evidence that the gospels were meant to record history.

Rick Sumner

You should probably let scholarship at large know then, because most reconstructions of the time (to speak nothing of many aspects of reconstructions of the origins of the Dead Sea Scrolls), seem to think it tends a little more towards "more" than "less." The powerful arguments I'm sure you have backing such an unorthodox assertion could revolutionize entire fields.

In either event, the point still holds. 1 and 2 Macc. are texts written with a "religious purpose" that are considered credible.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have said so?

Whether there is intent to record history seems to be based on a touch blue make it true state of affairs. Whim of the exegete is almost universally the factor most important in the conclusion in either direction. But, again, this isn't what you said. If you'd like to retract your initial assertion ("religious purpose") and replace it with "intent to record history," then we're gold.

I fail to see your point here, all ancient histories need to be subjected to analysis. "Historian" had a decidedly different meaning at the time.

Then one must wonder if you've read them all. Luke tells us his intent at the start of his gospel. If that doesn't count as evidence, I'm not sure what does.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

andrewcriddle

I agree that Josephus' account of Alexander the Great is extremely unreliable but I think it is intended as history.

I have grave doubts about how far the final author of the so-called Augustan Histories (biographies of the 2nd and 3rd century Emperors) meant to write history at all as distinct from Historical Fiction. However parts of it are regarded as mostly accurate by modern historians.

The intent of a writer is only loosely related to how far his work can be used for historical purposes.

Andrew Criddle