Draygomb

If one is capable of killing one's grandfather then one has entered a timeline in which one won't be born.

Cosmo

What makes you think that there is only God time? There is Unicorn Time, Goblin Time and Court Jester Time etc. Which one created the universe?

Time is a concept that is based on the workings of our universe. What makes you think its applicable outside the universe?

MxM111

Oh! I am not arguing against that! I am just supplying counter-argument to the Draygomb paradox, thus resolving it. I am not saying that that is the actual way the universe + God is working. My conclusion is that the Draygomb paradox can not be a logical proof that God as TFC can not exist.

MxM111

OK, but this still resolve your original paradox. I think that the fact that you can have printout is irrelevant to this discussion.

Cosmo

If time belongs soley to the universe, then it is meaningless to talk of time and causality( a time dependent concept) outside of the universe. We have no reason to believe that "a time" exists outside of the universe. So, wouldn't it follow that God cannot be causal of the universe. If so, then God is pretty meaningless for the universe. He is as meaningful as unicorns. And it's not rational to hold onto the idea that unicorns exist.

Where do you draw the line? I think Draygomb has drawn a good boundary with his argument. Beyond time, then forget about it.

Just my two cents.

Oxymoron

Here's something interesting to add to the mix: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4974134.stm

Wads4

"Any Sort of God

I remember a while back, I asked Draygomb if his proof refutes every sort of God "

If we multiply Gods sufficiently (and in the process offend against Occam's Razor), then we can drown atheistic arguments by claiming that not all of these Gods' existences can be disproved, because one cannot completely search every corner of the Universe, or outside of the Universe.
But this is just a game of one-upmanship,-one can always add on another God and then say "ya sucks boo,-now disprove that one! I think there is something wrong with that approach (like Shifting the Burden of Proof).
But more seriously there is an identity problem for God. If every sort of God exists, then in order to be separately identifiable as individual Gods they must have different attributes; but if God is already defined as that which nothing greater can be imagined (according to the Ontological Argument),-then any other individual God cannot also be totally perfect in every way, otherwise he would be the twin of the traditional God,and all the other sorts of Gods would be their identical siblings. So in other words, different sorts of Gods cannot exist, without being demoted to entities like the traditional lesser gods of polytheistic religions, who were generally subservient to the great God,-just as Aphrodite would be subservient to Zeus.
Therefore we are stuck with just the one perfect God and Dragomb need not bother with "any sort of God".

Wads4

The fact that we don't have a universally acknowledged account of God simply confirms that nothing is known of Him, and that all gods are invented and re-invented in order to escape logical counter-arguments, and that the very concept of God is a metaphysical error, and certainly nothing to do with peer reviews in scientific journals.

Wads4

"I am also criticising his view that it disproves all definitions of God that 'matter'."

What is the definition of a God that "matters"? Is it the omnimax God?--then surely that is the one we have been discussing.

Wads4

"Hence, either time is substance, and Draygomb is required to meet a burden and revise his definition of time, or time is a relation and Draygomb is required to revise his assertion that God created time (RAA Assumption) purposely and directly."

Surely the validity of the space-time concept is a matter for Physicists to sort out,-and not for Dragomb to have to prove? Whether Time is a relation or a substance still leaves the issue of Space unresolved. God also needs space in which to exist, and if there was no space, how did God himself exist and begin to create space which did not exist before he created it? The Christian response is so obvious: you just have special God-space and special God-Time, outside of the Universe of normal space-time. The only problem is, where is the scientific evidence for this? It is just multiplying entities again, so as to keep ahead of atheist arguments.