Casper

Well thank you oh mighty one, for offering to cleanse the frightening world of speculative fiction so that it is fit for consumption by us unwashed and unintelligent. Heaven forbid that we would not have the brainpower nor the motive to look into something on our own.

Arrogant Elitism. Its not just for Sadducees anymore

NOGO

This is getting quite boring.

goozlefotz

I have no idea what you mean by that.

You haven't studied much about the writing of the NT, have you? I think you might be better off keeping your fantasies rather than trying to understand the reality.

goozlefotz

Actually, the Gospel of John says clearly that Jesus is divine. Of course, that gospel was written almost 200 years later by an unknown author.

NOGO

I have read GJohn many times.
Nowhere does it claim that a man is divine.

Californian

I couldn't find anything either. There are a lot of references to Jesus and the Father being best buddies, but even after the resurrection Jesus doesn't actually say he's God. Just looked at Corinthians 15. Even Paul is squishy on the subject. You can read Jesus as God or as someone very close to God.

goozlefotz

RSV:
chapter 1
[1]: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2]: He was in the beginning with God;
[3]: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
[4]: In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
[5]: The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

[14]: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

How do you interpret the above?

NOGO

Items [1] to [5]
These items refer to the Word of God and not to any man.

Item [14] The Word became flesh ...
The issue here is in which way did the Word become flesh.
John, like Mark, has no virgin birth story.

In GMark right after Jesus' baptism where Jesus receives the spirit of God it is stated "Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness."
Now if Jesus is God why is it that the Spirit of God needs to impel him into the wilderness?

In the GJohn there are many indication that the man and the Spirit of God are two distinct entities. I have no time now but I will post again to conclude.

goozlefotz

Responding to NOGO:
Verse [2] refers to the Word as "he". I claim that the word "Word" refers to Jesus.
I don't care about the virgin birth.
I do not personally believe that Jesus was or is a God. I do, however, believe that he existed as an actual person. My pontification here is only about whether GJohn referred to Jesus as a God.
Dave

NOGO

I know what you claim. In my book verse [2] refers to he, the Word of God who created the world. Genesis does not have any He creating the world other than Yahweh or Elohim, but that is another story.

You should care about the virgin birth because it was then that Matthew and Like claim that the Word became flesh even though the scene at Jesus' baptism does not fit any more as I have point out.

Back to the GJohn.


The teaching is not the man's teaching but God's.
Note the "It is of God or whether I speak speak from myself".
I put a uncapitilized "m" otherwise it makes no sense.
If Myself is God then the sentence is simply silly.
Jesus is saying that what he teaches is not his own.

A clear distinction between the messenger and the He whom he represents.

This is one of my favorite. The Father abiding in me does His works.
Jesus is saying that the Father in him does the works not himself, ie not the man.

When did Jesus receive the Spirit of the Father which abides in him and does His works???
At his baptism.
Keep in mind the bit in Mark

Note the Spirit descends upon him in verse [10]
In verse [12] the Spirit impels him into the wilderness.

Jesus, the man, is possessed by the Spirit of God.

This is the nature of the incarnation described in John.

It is the Spirit of God which speaks and acts through the man.
This is what John 14:10 is saying.

You need to reread GJohn and not just assume what you have been told.