maryhelena

Bottom line is that history, Hasmonean/Jewish history is relevant. That is my bottom line.....

Who? The gospel writers used that history in the creation of the JC composite figure and the gospel storyline.

When? Anytime from the execution of Antigonus by Roman - anytime after 37 b.c.

Why? Same reason stories and figures in the OT were created. Jewish history viewed as 'salvation history'. The Jewish god had a hand in the affairs of the Jewish people. Prophetic 'history', mythological 'history'. Meaning found in history. Jewish history interpreted via a prophetic lens.

Why Philo? He was there i.e. he lived during the gospel time-frame. He was a writer of philosophical ideas and interpretations of the OT. He had the skills necessary to create such a JC figure. Did the Essenes exist or were they a philosophical ideal? What about the Therapeutae - and your thread on that issue?

First or second century? First century. Why? One reason I would place the creation of the gospel JC story in the first century is that Philo lived during the time in which the gospel story is set. Born around 20 b.c. and died around 50 c.e. he would have had links to those who lived during the Antigonus execution - and he, himself, lived after the death of Agrippa I. Is there another historical figure that you care to nominate - someone with the required skill base able to create a composite JC figure that reflects elements from Hasmonean/Jewish history? The gospel JC figure is no simple creation - it's a highly sophisticated creation by someone imbued in Jewish thought - and history.

Onias

Mary,
What do you and I and Constantine and Robert Price and Robert Eisenman and Michael Wise and Joe Atwill and Mountainman and Martin Luther and Hermann Detering, et., all have in common as it relates to your OP?


We all have same topic in mind: The Gospel stories,


(which incidentally are an epiphenomenon of Hasmonean/Jewish history. . . . and the various relations of Jews and Romans during the development of the new Christian religion.)

Each of us has a different perspective of how Christianity evolved, but we all have the same topic in mind, regardless of the time period in which we happen to live.
Onias

maryhelena

And this OP - and my interest - is in the Hasmonean/Jewish history from the time of Antigonus to the death of Agrippa I.

Onias, there are probably dozens of ways to approach the gospel story. I'm trying to focus on the history detailed in my chart.

Onias

Mary,
Agrippa I died in 44 CE, and the events in the gospels were said to be prior to that date!
Onias

maryhelena

Onias - the gospel story is set prior to that date. The OP is dealing with Hasmonean/Jewish history......and referenced elements of the gospel story that are reflecting that history.

(not forgetting of course that statement in gJohn which has JC not yet 50 years old - if about 30 years old in the 15th year of Tiberius - well that takes him close to 49 c.e.................)

mountainman

Eusebius used both Philo and Josephus for his agenda driven history and had no qualms in interpolating Josephus. One must include Eusebius in any possible list.


So where did the gospel authors get the idea that they were dealing with a high profile healer, one who could cast out "daimons", make the blind see, the lame walk and the deaf hear? I don't recall any Jewish King doing this sort of stuff. I cannot see that the "HEALER" comes from Jewish history, and therefore suggest we must be dealing with a non-simple and composite creation.





εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

maryhelena

Pete - the JC figure was up and running prior to Eusebius...You know the sources and, seemingly, want to discard them. I'm not about to get involved with your Constantine or Eusebius theories. My interest is prior to that time - as detailed in the OP chart.

No Jewish king - nor any man - is able to, literally, make the blind see, the lame walk and the deaf hear.

Onias

Mary,
That's what I just said! The gospel story is set prior to the date of the death of Agrippa, and the gospels are the topic of interest to Constantine and all other NT commentators irrespective of the time era in which they themselves lived.

And according to the gospels Jesus died around 33 CE.
Onias

maryhelena

The gospels are a topic of interest - period.

The gospel story is not history.

And now?

Back to the OP and the chart...

outhouse

Out of curiosity, why the emphasis on Hasmonean instead of Herodian?


And what influence have you found that can be directly related?


Not bustin your chops, just trying to learn here.