Ben C Smith

The gospel materials in Justin are rarely anything approaching verbatim.

Do you also agree that John 3.4, paralleled in Justin, seems quite Johannine?

I have a page on my site the sole purpose of which is to collect gospel parallels in Justin. It is not complete, since I am adding the parallels as I go along with my synoptic project, which has been going slowly of late (schedule pressures that ironically leave me more time than usual for posting on internet boards but far less time for the heavy work of composing synopses).

Why not just plain John? At least a recension of it?

Ben.

Julian

Shouldn't we ask why? In my experience, quotes are usually verbatim or paraphrased in a manner that we see when dealing with the synoptic problem. Justin seems a step further removed than a synoptic style quotation. I could buy that he is quoting from memory. Maybe. But why wouldn't he simply copy what Jesus said? Wouldn't that be the simplest? Why all the changes? I also don't see how he gets from John 3:3 to what he writes. More below.
Confused head-tilt. Do you mean 2.6.3 versus John 1.1?

If so, then I find the same strange paraphrasing here as I do in the other section.

Are you translating κυÏ?ιως as 'authoritatively?' Adverbial to λεγομενος rather than adjectival to υιος? My Greek is still in its early stages and I am mostly asking for learning purposes here.
I shall dig out the Sanders and Davies reference and send it to you, if I can find it. It is in their book on the Synoptics which I suspect you might own.
A recension, maybe. I dont' know enough about the evolution of GJohn to answer that intelligently.

Julian

Ben C Smith

Whose quotes? Eusebius and later ecclesiastical writers, yes. But the earlier writers seem to paraphrase or quote from memory a lot. Or so it seems to me.

That is my bet a lot of the time. It must have been quite cumbersome to look up any given quote without references, word breaks, concordances, and maybe in a scroll.

See above.

No, I mean the literalized metaphor of John 3.4 compared with Justin, Apology 1.61.5.

The word κυÏ?ιως is an adverb; it cannot to my knowledge be an adjective. The -ως suffix is a common adverbial ending.

I do not own it, though I have skimmed parts of it in a library.

Ben.

Julian

They are clearly identical in idea.
I see. Thanks.

Julian

Amaleq13

I happened upon this article from Greek Orthodox Theological Review discussing the very same topic. The author concludes dependence on John is likely but beware the tiny font!!!

Julian

:rolling:

Ben C Smith

Hey, Amaleq, nice link. Thanks.

Ben.

mens_sana

"The anonymous author who dismisses The Shepherd of Hermas because it was penned 'recently' by someone who was not an apostle .... The Muratorian canon does not mention the books of Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, or 3 John, but it does accept as canonical all of the other books of our present New Testament. Interestingly, it also accepts the Wisdom of Solomon and, somewhat tentatively, the Apocalypse of Peter. Finally, the author explicitly condemns two books that he labels as forgeries concocted by followers of Marcion in the name of Paul: a letter to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians. ... This fragment is of great interest to the historian of early Christianity, for it reveals a period of Christian history in which a closed canon of Scripture appears to be on the horizon, while being still some distance off." — Bart Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, 2nd edition, Oxford University Press, 2000, p.438.

I think Ehrman's analysis of the Muratorian's date fits ca. 200 far better that a 4th century one, especially when we recall that Athanasius's Festal Letter of 367 is the first list of what is now the NT canon.

andrewcriddle

Many scholars think that Justin's very loose citation of the synoptics is a result of him not using the synoptics as we have them but an early harmony.

(Some would go on to argue that, after being combined with John by Justin's disciple Tatian, this harmony became the Diatessaron.)

Andrew Criddle

Julian

Funny, I just sent a PM to Ben, making that point. It was a quotation From E.P. Sanders and Margaret Davies and they propose that very point, among others. I don't believe that what Justin refers to as 'Memoirs of the Apostles' is any of the four gospels we have in the canon today, but it is clearly related to a significant degree.

Julian