WalrusGumBoot

Hi, I'm not posting this to pick any kind of argument or start a debate. I have wanted to post this message for a long time, finally the thought came at the same time that I was at the computer, so I finally remembered.

First, a very quick background on myself. I used to be a close-minded theist who happened to meet some atheists and got in a religious debate. They had an in-depth knowledge of the Bible and religious history, but my knowledge of naturalism was very weak (probably like most theists). After they ripped me a new one, I delved into a study of evolution as time permitted, not up to par with them, but enough to carry on an intelligent conversation. Well, admittedly, my initial studies shook my faith, which caused me to delve further into study. The process lasted over 2 years.

Me and my atheist buddies continued discussions, and became very good friends (except for one guy who was an *sshole). They at least respected my effort to educate myself even though in the end I still am a theist.

So, that brings me to my questions that have always bugged me about atheists...

1) Why is so much time and effort expended by atheists reading and posting about why they don't believe in God, and studying about how to refute creationists? I would think that if it a "done deal" in your belief system, that the time would be better spent enjoying the life you have left, playing a round of golf, spending time with family and friends, etc. What it looks like is that atheists must keep reaffirming to themselves and to each other why they don't believe in God, because the pull to believe is so strong.

2) Why do atheists often treat theists in a demeaning and insulting manner, even stooping down to name-calling (e.g. "moron") when they do not appear as educated as yourself and do not believe as you do? Calling theists close-minded and intolerant backfires in your face because you exhibit the same behavior.

3) Finally, how many of you were always atheists all your life and how many "converted" to atheist, and if the latter, what prompted you to do so? I have met many atheists over the years, and have friends that are, and I see that many with a religious childhood are very hostile toward even considering a god can exist. You cannot just discuss the issue in a civil manner, they get so bent out of shape. Most, maybe by coincidence, are from a Catholic background, the king of hypocritical belief systems. Some also voiced bad experiences without delving further.

Anyway, again, I'm not trying to start a debate, I am just curious.

WalrusGumBoot

Jayco

Trust me, I believe I have a loooong life ahead of me. I think my generation will undoubetly live past 100, and besides, life with my girlfriend seems like an eternity anyhow. =P Second of all, I don't think any (well, I can't say for everyone) studies to "refute creationists". I study this stuff to get a better understanding of the world, not a better understanding of how to kick a creationist's ass in debate (that's infinitely easy, trust me). Third of all, I feel no pull to your supposed god because I don't believe in your supposed god.

Theists also treat atheists in a demaning and insulting manner as well. However, most theists are close-minded due to the fact that is requires a leap of faith for them to actually believe in a god despite well. ..everything. Besides, I think it's entirely fair to call theists intolerant. Do you see atheists trying to determine the course of world affairs? Atheists aren't creating havoc in war-torn countries. Atheists don't go around disrupting the funerals of American soldiers. Atheists aren't standing in the way of medical advances. And as far as I know, no one has killed in the name of atheism.

I was never molested by a cretin Catholic priest, no. In fact, I hardly went to church. As far as I know, I've always never believed in a god -- the death of my step-mother when I was 9 or so probably prompted me to even start thinking so heavily.

chapka

First of all, not all atheists spend a lot of time arguing about the existence of God; it's just that, as a theist, those are the ones you're most likely to know are atheists and encounter. Most atheists don't spend that much time thinking about it. Asking this question in the Existence of God debate forum is likely to get you a somewhat skewed sample. However, when pushed, most atheists are likely to be able to respond to some of the obvious arguments, simply because once certain theists realize you're an atheist, they will desperately try to convince you.

I think you rarely, including on this board, see atheists out to "convert" theists. Where there are some rare exceptions, including our resident church-picketer (he's young, he'll outgrow it), you'll see lots of criticism or "what's the point" reactions from atheists here as well. In fact, one reason "existence of god" and "evolution" have been split off into their own subforums is so that the endless stream of creationist and/or theists who are determined to convert us don't interfere in the other forums.

Creationism and church/state separation issues are even more defensive, and not offensive, battles. I think it's perfectly reasonable of atheists to educate themselves when the alternative is allowing religious doctrine to be imposed on themselves by law.

Lowly Idiot

This one's easy.

I do it because it's fun.

Welcome to the boards!

Pavlov's Dog

I don't spend much time on it, because I don't care. I don't really care if Jesus was mythical or historical. I don't care if Jesus lived in Missouri for a while. Every now and then I will point out logical fallacies in theist "god exists" arguments, but that is about the extent of it.

I don't call all theists morons. I only call morons, morons. And I don't do that on this board because it is not allowed.

I was born an atheist, raised without religion by an atheist mother. I have never been baptized or any of that other junk.

RAFH

Interesting, you say you don't want to start a debate but you go ahead and make very strong statements about a group of people that are certain to spark exactly that. Perhaps this is a good example of the reasons your questions seek.

1 - Why do we spend the time? Much the same reason as theists go to church and proselytize. And because theists are constantly challenging our philosophy, not just directly but it their day to day living. In the laws that exist and are proposed, in the spending of public funds, in the setting of public policies. In how non-believers are discriminated against. You think it might be hard to be a catholic in a protestant neighborhood, try being an atheist in nearly any neighborhood. As a recent former president suggested, many think we shouldn't be allowed to vote. That sort of tends to get your attention and make you want to change things. Just look at the insanity in Kansas and Dover, PA.

2 - You are right, such name-calling is counter productive. Although I've seen and heard such, its a two-way street. I attempt to refrain from the use of such terms, though I do use 'delusional', however, I consider that a statement of fact rather than a derogatory. Believing in imaginary entities is delusional. If I seriously and strongly maintained I had an invisible friend who was with me at all times and was able to perform magic, real magic, would you not consider me delusional?

3 - Personally, I have been a non-believer for as long as I can remember thinking about the subject, at least back to about age 4. As for others, how would you feel if you woke up one day and found out your spouse had been living a complete lie with you, they had another lover and even a family and life with? Wouldn't you be a bit angry at having been deceived? What if found out what you thought was your best friend had actually been lying to you for years and years? What if you found out your parents were not your parents but had 'stolen' you at birth? What if you found out people in your government had been working with the enemies of your country to destroy it? Yeah, there's a lot of anger and resentment. Its a common result of lying and deception. Especially when the deceiver is confronted with the truth and they go on trying to deceive.

WalrusGumBoot

Sigh... sadly true. Many of them think they are the ones to finally save the world. Sorry to hear that and that it doesn't reflect on me because, frankly, I know better.

ModernHeretic

I really spend less time arguing about God than I do trying to make sense of a naturalistic world. It's much more difficult to actually understand how and why everything came about than to merely say "God did it". For me, at least, educating myself about the arguments for or against the existence of a God is more so that I can explain my position and answer objections to the 85-90% of people in this country who do claim to believe in a God.

As for the pull to believe, I have to disagree. I don't think it's so much that atheists need reaffirmation as it is that we tend to be very logical and like to argue about things. That, and of course if you post something in the EoG forum it's not exactly going to be representative of atheists in general.

Answer: some people are assholes. I personally try not to do that, but I suppose that when some people are better informed or educated than others they have a certain sense of intellectual superiority.

Of course, to be fair, there are quite a few theists who are jerks as well, and who treat anyone who doesn't share their views as stupid, ignorant, or immoral. Theists in particular tend to associate belief in a particular system of metaphysics with morality, and assume that those who believe are moral, whereas those who disbelieve are not.

You should realize that you're making a rather large generalization here that could just as easily apply to believers and non-believers.

Well you don't really "convert" to atheism, you de-convert from whatever you were before. For me, I was raised as a Christian, but all it really took to lead me to unbelief was a single intelligent, educated person to seriously make me question my faith. This person wasn't even an atheist; in fact, he was an orthodox Jewish rabbi.

I'm sure causing me to lose my faith wasn't his intention, but nonetheless when you force people to think about things and make sense of their own beliefs some people are going to find that their beliefs really don't make much sense, and maybe there just isn't much reason to think that they're actually true either.

Lowly Idiot

Heh-he! Learn it in your lunch hour!

Nah, seriously though, I had no idea whatsoever that creationism even still existed until I hooked up to the 'net back in the late 90's. I found it fascinating that people still gave credence to that kind of wacky crap. I guess my atheism grew out of this revelation.

I was raised in a bog standard British town and went to a middle of the road British school. All very secular, and whatnot, despite taking religious studies as one of my educational options. (I thought it'd be a good skive. I was right too.(creationism wasn't mentioned once as far as I can recall)). So creationism was very alien to me and I found it absolutely hilarious.

I still do.

Many a night I'll find myself bent over with laughter, tears streaming from my eyes, with countless mouthfuls of beer spat over my monitor and keyboard just from the various little gems that pop up on places like here and christian forums.

I know it can seem disrespectful, but I'm just here for a good laugh. So please, don't take it seriously. And if I offend you, then, Boom!, forgive me!

Sarpedon

Because religion is used as a tool by religious and political figures to increase their own power. 'Faith' means believing whatever you are told to believe. Naturally, politicians like to encourage this quality. It is the basis of all totalitarian systems. By being vociferously against this idea, we show people that there is more than one way of thinking about things. We oppose faith because it is evil. Pure evil. Faith is what makes good people do evil things. Have you ever seen the change that comes over people of faith when the conversation turns to one of the things they have a faith view on? It is truly terrifying: One moment, a kindly, intelligent person...the next, vacant eyed, angry, red in the face, ranting against homosexuals, jews, or whatever. Its like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, seriously.

And if you think what we do is odd, how about believers praying five times a day, or sunday school children singing 'Jesus loves me this I know, for My Bible tells me so," or in extreme cases, people thanking jesus for a successful bus ride?

To shock. We've been polite for so long. Its allowed you to ignore us. Religious people don't listen to reason, so we have to try something else. What else is there, you tell us. The idea that some carpenter living two thousand years ago in a minor roman province was actually the omnipotent lord of the universe is a stupid idea. Period. Stop behaving like its not. We listen to reason, we are not closeminded. We dismiss your beliefs because you do not have one shred of evidence to support it. Not one. Bring us evidence and we'll consider it. Until then, we have no reason to give your myths a second thought.

Ah yes, rip on the Catholics. Protestantism is ten times worse than catholicism, because of their insistence on biblical literalism. The only reason that protestantism isn't as bad as catholicism, is because it was never as powerful. Period. If any protestant church had the same amount of power as the Catholic church once had, it would have been the same story, or worse. Most atheists I know were protestants. I've met more than one former protestant preacher. The thing we all have in common was that we repulsed by the hypocrisy of the beliefs of the church, and by our fellow church goers. My fellow cultists were small minded, backstabbing, racist, intolerant rich fucks who judged everyone by the size of their checkbooks. I was teaching sunday school when I first had a major doubt. I realized that the only reason I believed what I did was because I had previously been taught it, in that very same room. Once I realized that I didn't really believe it, and I hated my fellow cultists, I had no reason to stay.