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Old 01-07-2009, 04:41 AM   #51
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That is why I wrote that Earl should ask Carrier how he can write a summary of his views in a format that they formally can use in their set up.

It is just a practical way to allow them and Earl to save face in relation to each other.

Ok I am naive but emotions is important so them being humans, why not treat them that way. They need to save face so the only way is to abide to their set up and write something that is acceptable to them. That way all of you win.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:13 AM   #52
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The Jesus Project is considering methodology first. Then they will discuss the paucity of data and well various theories fit the data.

I should note that Robert Price has been somewhat positive in regard to Acharya S, and she has responded by trying to improve the scholarly level of her work - we will see how well in her next book. Astrotheology is not necessarily flakier than some Christian theories, but as Carrier noted in his essay on Kersey Graves, it needs a lot of work to bring it up to 21st century standards.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:17 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by EarlDoherty View Post
As for Hoffmann's comment, you can find it on Wikipedia:

Quote:
R. Joseph Hoffmann considers that there are "reasons for scholars to hold" the view that Jesus never existed, but considers Doherty's book "qualitatively and academically far inferior to anything so far written on the subject".
Actually, what we find on Wiki is anot Hoffmann's comment, but a report of what Hoffmann said which provides us with only a bit of what Hoffmann said.
In the service of the purpose of making sure we know exactly what (and all that) Hoffmann said, here's the full quote in context.

Quote:
31. In addition to the following books by the most visible contemporary champion of the myth theory, the British scholar G. A. Wells, a number of older studies can be recommended. Of Wells's many titles, The Jesus of the Early Christians (London: Pemberton, 1971) is the most tightly argued; Did Jesus Exist? (London: Pemberton, 1986) is also worth noting, as is The Historical Evidence for Jesus (Amherst, NY. Prometheus Books, 1988). A "disciple" of Wells, Earl Doherty, has rehashed many of the former's views in The Jesus Puzzle (Age of Reason Publications, 2005), which is qualitatively and academically far inferior to anything so far written on the subject. Of older works worth consulting on the immediate context of Goguel's writing, see: Arthur Drews, Die Leugnung der Geschichtlichkeit Jesu in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart (Karlsruhe, 1926); Bruno Bauer, "Der Abschluss der neutestamentlichen Literatur", in Christus und die Caesaren: Der Ursprung des Christenthums aus dem r6mischen Griechenthum (Berlin, 1879); and G. A. van den Bergh van Eysinga: Hercules-Christus, Godsdienstwetenschappelijke Studien, vol. 1 (1947). There is now a reputable Web site devoted entirely to so-called radical criticism of' the New Testament: http://www.radikalkritik.de/ Klassiker.htm.
Quote:
Now, what did he mean by this? G. A. Wells? Freke and Gandy, Acharya?
To answer this question, it might help to look at the text (and its larger context) for which what is noted above is a footnote.

Here's the sentence that the quote above footnotes:

Quote:
The number of scholars holding what became branded the "radical" view of the New Testament, a term that failed to convey sharp differences of opinion among adherents 'of the myth theory, swelled greatly in the late nineteenth and earlier twentieth century
And here's the context in which that sentence appears:


Quote:
Could Christianity be a Judaic or Jewish-Gnostic recollection of one of these earlier myths? Theorists in the nineteenth century making use of a variety of analogues ranging from pertinent to absurd began to be convinced it could....

6. A positive verdict on the historicity of the gospels would also have to depend on an assessment of the kind of literature a gospel is: the early myth theorists were often more forthright than their theological opponents in this regard, saying that the gospels were examples of first-century religious propaganda, created for the purpose of winning allies for the new movement. One gospel explicitly (John 20.30; 21.25) and one by implication (Luke 1.3-4) serves this purpose. This should raise an alert with regard to any secondary, historical purposes a gospel writer might have had in telling the story of Jesus. But again, that question is ruled out by motive: the only reason for telling the story is to exhort and to persuade ("kerygmatize" is a polite term used by biblical scholars), not to provide evidence. Thus we are thrown back on the principle that the reason for the gospel's existence is to propagate the myth of the redeemer as someone situated in history (thus human) but whose true home was heaven above (divine). Whereas the traditional biblical exegete begins with a Jesus who "becomes" a divinity through flukes of history, biblical interpretation, and (finally) conciliar edict, the myth theorists had wondered since before Schweitzer's Von Reimarus zu Wrede (English translation: The Quest of the Historical Jesus, 19 11)28 why the myth is so pervasive that it yields no purely historical data-no information which is not, in the language of biblical studies, "Christological." Regarded strictly from the standpoint of the literary hypotheses of the nineteenth century, the movement is from Christ to Jesus and not Jesus to Christ,29 and the famous Bultmannian dichotomy reckoned to save theology from its detractors-the distinction between the "Christ of Faith" and the "Jesus of History" disappears.30 The number of scholars holding what became branded the "radical" view of the New Testament, a term that failed to convey sharp differences of opinion among adherents 'of the myth theory, swelled greatly in the late nineteenth and earlier twentieth century31 before it was swept aside by a tide of historical scholarship that seemed to supplant its basic tenets with a succession of "quests" for more detailed information about the Jesus of history as he might be reconstructed from the gospels.32
So it looks like what he meant by "anything so far written on the subject" is anything written so far by scholars such as G.A. Wells (whom he obviously does mention). It seems reasonable to conclude that the reason he does not mention Freke and Gandy and Acharya is that in his estimation -- amd in that of many others as well -- these folk are not scholars, let alone scholars on the order of Wells.

Quote:
One might also wonder why, if it is so inferior, The Jesus Puzzle has made such an impact around the world (Korean, Spanish, Portuguese, German translations), website translations in three Scandinavian languages, etc.,
I'm not sure that translation of a work into other, let alone a number of other, languages indicates anything about the quality of a work. After all, Tarzan of the Apes has been translated into far more languages than the JP has, and although I love the work dearly, it is by any reconing of quality hardly a masterpiece of literature. And how many langauges has the Protocols of the Elders of Zion been translated into? (Note I am not -- repeat NOT -- making any kind of equation between PEZ and JP. I'm just making a point that, contrary to what Earl seems to be claiming, the idea that a work's being widely traslated and disseminated is a sure indication of its quality is higly questionable).


Quote:
But above all, there's the clincher. The fact that Jeffrey Gibson takes the trouble to haunt the halls of IIDB (oops, I guess that's FRDB now) seemingly every waking moment of his day, no doubt neglecting family, friends and teaching responsibilities, seeking every opportunity to discredit me and my views.
Perhaps you'd better let Geoff Hudson know about this. His contention is that I "no doubt" spend all my time doing other things (including impersonating Earl and being Toto -- see here).


Quote:
That kind of dedication is usually not found expended in opposition to a piece of low quality garbage.
Interesting that one has to mightily exaggerate things in order to make one's point.

Quote:
(Hmmm....Gee, I wonder who might have added that Hoffmann comment to Wikipedia?)
Ah yes, accusation by insinuation. Isn't this something that the moderators has stated should not be done on this List?

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Old 01-07-2009, 12:52 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
The Jesus Project is considering methodology first. Then they will discuss the paucity of data and well various theories fit the data.

I should note that Robert Price has been somewhat positive in regard to Acharya S, and she has responded by trying to improve the scholarly level of her work - we will see how well in her next book....
I would think no Jesus Project like this would be complete without Acharya S. Speaking of her new book, checkout the just released online preface for her latest book: http://stellarhousepublishing.com/ciepreface.html

Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/ch...-contents.html

She was once originally a fellow of The Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion (CSER) and was removed without the courtesy of any explanation whatsoever, still to this very day.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...main&page=CSER

What's up with that? I'm very disappointed by that type of unprofessional behavior. She should be apart of this project.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:26 PM   #55
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As an atheist who hated everything Christian and religious I hated Astrology too and I can't stand reading about such speculations but it looks very likely on the surface so maybe she is on to something?

But it is at same time a so far out theory that it is completely wacko.

I mean why would they at all create a whole Catholic church and Konstantin seeing the potentiality in such lame thing as an astrology faith.

So could it be partly right. In same way as they borrowed from Babylonic myths they could have borrowed all kinds of mythic material but that which did work was not the astrology thing but the

Submitting to something bigger than you and the promises of an eternal life.

Ok it all did happen so way back in time.

I come to think of Marxists Leninists fighting it in Sovjet.

Doesn't it all look very much the same. All the interpretation of the book and so on. All those Marxists, Maoists, Costroists sect like small groups all of them having sligtly different takes on it all.

I mean humans where humans already then so all these Jewish and Roman and Greek interpretations going on and most likely they knew about Egypt and Persian views too and maybe even Buddhist/Hindu views and they made many different interpretations and combination and one of them get an upper hand and eliminated all the others brutally and that is not easy to sort out now so many years later. They burned the texts that could have told the truth about it all.

I think what survived was the most brutal version, the ruthless dictator type indoctrination version.

why one can't recommend faith to nobody. Jesus is not the kind guy they say.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:33 PM   #56
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Jeffrey quoting the context of Hoffmann's comment:

Quote:
A "disciple" of Wells, Earl Doherty, has rehashed many of the former's views in The Jesus Puzzle (Age of Reason Publications, 2005), which is qualitatively and academically far inferior to anything so far written on the subject.
All I can say is that this proves my earlier contention that Hoffmann did not read the book. I "rehashed" nothing of Wells. The entire approach of my book is completely different from anything Wells wrote. If some points in The Jesus Puzzle are similar to those made by Wells, it's quite reasonably because certain ideas are inevitably arrived at by all mythicists. Hoffmann's reference in that passage to virtually every book Wells ever wrote (all of them were variations on his same themes) would indicate a bit of hero-worship on H's part, perhaps leading him to turn up his nose at anything which might supplant him.

In fact it occurs to me that since his comment on my book was specifically in the context of that listing of Wells' output, it may have been entirely motivated by some sort of competitive stance he envisioned (and disapproved of) between Wells and myself. As far as I'm concerned, there is none, and have a great respect for the 'grand old man' of late 20th century mythicism, even if I don't entirely agree with him.

His negative comment I referred to about "the cosmic Christ" is a direct reference to the principal area in which I drastically differ from Wells and to which half of my book is dedicated--and for which, I might add, I am chiefly known (and often criticized). Not only does that put me outside any 'rehash' accusation, it indicates a pro-Wells position which seems to invite scorn of someone whose views might call Wells' judgment into question.

And once again, I regret not putting in a 'humor' alert for those who are humor impaired.

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Old 01-07-2009, 09:49 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by GDon
I'm not hiding that I am drawing a parallel here between how her ideas should be treated by the Jesus Project, and how you would expect your ideas to be treated. Many laymen think that Acharya S is a genius, and are undoubtedly convinced that the Jesus Project should take her ideas into consideration. If the Project doesn't, I have no doubt that her supporters will cry foul. But would that be a reasonable response? How would you expect the Jesus Project to grapple with the ideas in her (popularly published) books?
This is rather moot, Don, since the Project has not yet given any sign that it will address hers or my ideas, or any other mythicist's. Are you suggesting that because--you imply--they wouldn't consider her case, they shouldn't consider mine? It would be up to them to decide which writer or writers they would address, or how they would go about it.

This seems an ill-disguised attempt to sow dissension in the ranks, Don (*). As for my review of Acharya's book, it was a show of support for a fellow mythicist who I felt had something good to say, even if aspects of that book were open to criticism by those who are ever ready to take that opportunity. I felt Robert Price had gotten carried away in his initial response, and was glad to see that he has come around to embracing the value her work does possess. And no, I'm not saying anything further on this subject.

* wanted to put a 'wink' icon here, but nothing I tried worked. Geez, I can't be that stupid.

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Old 01-08-2009, 12:21 AM   #58
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One might also wonder why, if it is so inferior, The Jesus Puzzle has made such an impact around the world (Korean, Spanish, Portuguese, German translations), website translations in three Scandinavian languages, etc., and of course the very fine and appreciated endorsement by Robert Price.
Could you please link to some of these translations? I could find no such links in http://www.jesuspuzzle.com

Perhaps with an invitation to do more translations.
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Old 01-08-2009, 04:12 AM   #59
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http://www.jesuspusslet.se/

Translation in Swedish.

I am lazy but found these within some minutes.

The Jesus Puzzle (2-Volume Set)

... (Translated into Korean) ยท Titles Starting With H ~ K The Jesus Puzzle (2- Volume Set) ... While based on the author's work for The Jesus Puzzle website, ...
hanbooks.com/jesuspuzzle.html
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Old 01-09-2009, 07:05 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlDoherty View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GDon
I'm not hiding that I am drawing a parallel here between how her ideas should be treated by the Jesus Project, and how you would expect your ideas to be treated. Many laymen think that Acharya S is a genius, and are undoubtedly convinced that the Jesus Project should take her ideas into consideration. If the Project doesn't, I have no doubt that her supporters will cry foul. But would that be a reasonable response? How would you expect the Jesus Project to grapple with the ideas in her (popularly published) books?
This is rather moot, Don, since the Project has not yet given any sign that it will address hers or my ideas, or any other mythicist's.

Earl,

I have it directly from Hoffmann himself that once the the JP website is back up (editing papers from the last session has prevented him from having had rime to deal with the website), he is going to invite you to write something that will be considered and discussed at a JP session. He also notes that I should inform you that the website should be back up by February 1st "in case [Earl] wants to get a start" on writing something for the JPs consideration.

And in the FWIW department, as well as FYI, he also tells me that what he meant by "'disciple' [not "pupil"] of Wells" in his footnote was, to quote him, " 'of the same ilk,' not slavish follower".

And yes, I have his permission to say so.

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