Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yalla · 09-29-2005, 08:52 PM

Aquila:"..not necessarily the "original" Augustus mentioned in the NT."

I don't think so Aquila.
The passage by Melito has a sequence, starting with "the great reign of Augustus" ,to whose time he dates the rise of Roman splendour etc.. That would seem to me to be a direct link to THE Augustus [previously Octavian] who, as Melito adds, started the empire viz. "which came into existence with Augustus". Later he adds emperors Nero and Domitian without referring to them as Augustus.

In the case of Tertullian it is also clear that he is referring to the original Augustus from his sequence of next mentioning Tiberius and Nero, and he does not, as Melito does not, include the attribute or title when referring to them.

So I think it's clear he is referring to the Augustus who died pre gospels era. And that what each of these writers is referring to is Christianity the philosophy/religion and not just the alleged birth of it's alleged founder.

I find these apparent references to pre gospel Christianity fascinating.
I also suspect that there is some sort of relationship between the two writers as their message and structure are, at least slightly, similar.

spin · 09-29-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila Pacis

Please bear in mind that "Augustus" is not a person's name but an attribute and a title which was first offered to Gaius Caesar Divi Filius - also known as Octavian, formerly Octavius - (adopted) son of Gaius Iulius Caesar, Divus Iulius. AFAIK almost every Caesar, every emperor after that carried "Augustus" in his official name.

Have you got any examples in the Julio-Claudian line after Octavian??

spin

Aquila Pacis · 09-30-2005, 05:14 AM

EXAMPLES:

Augustus: Gaius Caesar Augustus (formerly: Gaius Octavius Thurinus)

***

Tiberius: Tiberius Iulius Caesar Augustus
Caligula: Gaius Iulius Caesar Augustus Germanicus
Claudius: Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (formerly: Tiberius Claudius Drusus Germanicus)
Nero: L. Domitius Ahenobarbus Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus

***

on and on:

still even Commodus: Imp. Caes. M. Aurelius C. Antoninus Augustus (later: Imp. Caes. L. Aelius Aurelius Caesar Augustus)

***
***

@yalla: since Melito adds a comment on the rise of the Roman splendour - after all C. Caes. Augustus initiated a cultural revolution - and the empire that came into being, it is highly probable that he means the "original" Augustus. But I would love to read the original source text.

Are the Melito & Tertullian texts somewhere online? Thx.

PS: what are the dates of origin?

yalla · 09-30-2005, 06:26 AM

Aquila,
Peter Kirby's Early Christian Writings has both {Melito Tertullian}, I can't do links but you should be able to find it, or someone here, usually Toto, may provide a link.

Presuming it is considered that one, or both even, of these writers are backdating the rise of Christianity to a time before that normally considered, what do we reckon the implications of such might be?

Added:
Melito's dates and all "facts'' related to him are shadowy at best...perhaps 160CE.
Tertullian is c.200cCE.

jakejonesiv · 09-30-2005, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Be careful! That source is for the most part a pagan forgery (with a sense of humor).

Stephen,

Thanks for the warning. The passage is humorous, and is worth noting for that alone.

Hadrian was well aware of the worship of Serapis.
http://www.gardenvisit.com/ge/adri.htm

I don't see the words attributed to Hadrian, as unlikely. "There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis".

Serapis image
http://www.albionart.com/eng/museum/...en_jewel1.html

The Therapeutae (Philo, De Vita Contemplativa) worshipped Serapis, the good god (Chrestus). “An association of this god, on an inscription in Delos, calls its members Therapeutae. Another sanctuary of Therapeutae to Serapis has been found in Magnesia.�?

Eusebius was convinced that the Therapeuta were Christians.

“These statements of Philo we regard as referring clearly and indisputably to those of our communion. But if after these things any one still obstinately persists in denying the reference, let him renounce his incredulity and be convinced by yet more striking examples, which are to be found nowhere else than in the evangelical religion of the Christians.�? Church History, Book II, Chapter XVII 17-18
http://tinyurl.com/9kmfx

Quote:

I will cite one of Hadrian's letters, taken from the works of his freedman Phlegon, which fully reveals the character of the Egyptians.

From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting.

The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour.

There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ.

They are a folk most seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury; but their city is prosperous, rich, and fruitful, and in it no one is idle. Some are blowers of glass, others makers of paper, all are at least weavers of linen or seem to belong to one craft or another; the lame have their occupations, the eunuchs have theirs, the blind have theirs, and not even those whose hands are crippled are idle.

Their only god is money, and this the Christians, the Jews, and, in fact, all nations adore. And would that this city had a better character, for indeed it is worthy by reason of its richness and by reason of its size to hold the chief place in the whole of Egypt. I granted it every favour, I restored to it all its ancient rights and bestowed on it new ones besides, so that the people gave thanks to me while I was present among them.

Then, no sooner had I departed thence than they said many things against my son Verus, and what they said about Antinous I believe you have learned. I can only wish for them that they may live on their own chickens, which they breed in a fashion I am ashamed to describe. :rolling:

I am sending you over some cups, changing colour and variegated, presented to me by the priest of a temple and now dedicated particularly to you and my sister. I should like you to use them at banquets on feast-days. Take good care, however, that our dear Africanus does not use them too freely."

andrewcriddle · 09-30-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Stephen,

Thanks for the warning. The passage is humorous, and is worth noting for that alone.

Hadrian was well aware of the worship of Serapis.
http://www.gardenvisit.com/ge/adri.htm

I don't see the words attributed to Hadrian, as unlikely. "There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis".

The problem is that the claim about Hadrian comes in a section of the Augustan Histories about unsuccessful claimants to the Empiire (See Augustan Histories ) which is generally regarded as mostly fiction. Not just the bit about Hadrian and the Christians, but most of the entire chapter.

Andrew Criddle

Chris Weimer · 09-30-2005, 06:42 PM

Also, the Therapeutae in Philo didn't worship Serapis, but the confusion may have arisen from different groups calling themselves the same thing.

spin · 09-30-2005, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila Pacis

EXAMPLES:

Augustus: Gaius Caesar Augustus (formerly: Gaius Octavius Thurinus)

***

Tiberius: Tiberius Iulius Caesar Augustus
Caligula: Gaius Iulius Caesar Augustus Germanicus
Claudius: Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (formerly: Tiberius Claudius Drusus Germanicus)
Nero: L. Domitius Ahenobarbus Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus

OK, examples accepted. Let me put it another way, if you read say Tacitus or Suetonius would you ever have anyone but Octavian called Augustus? To save you the question for the Annals, the answer is "no". I also doubt it for the Histories or the Lives. So who actually called any of the Julio-Claudians "Augustus"?

spin

yalla · 10-01-2005, 07:53 AM

Ok I've read a bit more around Melito and Tertullian. Not a lot, a bit.
Someone suggests that Tertullian derived his argument that only bad emperors persecuted the Christians from the passage by Melito.
Seems plausible and accounts for their similarities so I'll tentatively consider buying that.

Which, if we run with that, means we [I'm presuming others are interested] can focus on Melito.
And for the life of me I cant see him doing anything else but backdating the Christian religion to a time that contradicts the gospels scenario.

Well?

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09-29-2005, 08:52 PM	#11
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Aquila:"..not necessarily the "original" Augustus mentioned in the NT." I don't think so Aquila. The passage by Melito has a sequence, starting with "the great reign of Augustus" ,to whose time he dates the rise of Roman splendour etc.. That would seem to me to be a direct link to THE Augustus [previously Octavian] who, as Melito adds, started the empire viz. "which came into existence with Augustus". Later he adds emperors Nero and Domitian without referring to them as Augustus. In the case of Tertullian it is also clear that he is referring to the original Augustus from his sequence of next mentioning Tiberius and Nero, and he does not, as Melito does not, include the attribute or title when referring to them. So I think it's clear he is referring to the Augustus who died pre gospels era. And that what each of these writers is referring to is Christianity the philosophy/religion and not just the alleged birth of it's alleged founder. I find these apparent references to pre gospel Christianity fascinating. I also suspect that there is some sort of relationship between the two writers as their message and structure are, at least slightly, similar.

09-30-2005, 05:14 AM	#13
Aquila Pacis Junior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: de Posts: 64	EXAMPLES: Augustus: Gaius Caesar Augustus (formerly: Gaius Octavius Thurinus) * Tiberius: Tiberius Iulius Caesar Augustus Caligula: Gaius Iulius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Claudius: Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (formerly: Tiberius Claudius Drusus Germanicus) Nero: L. Domitius Ahenobarbus Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus * on and on: still even Commodus: Imp. Caes. M. Aurelius C. Antoninus Augustus (later: Imp. Caes. L. Aelius Aurelius Caesar Augustus) * * @yalla: since Melito adds a comment on the rise of the Roman splendour - after all C. Caes. Augustus initiated a cultural revolution - and the empire that came into being, it is highly probable that he means the "original" Augustus. But I would love to read the original source text. Are the Melito & Tertullian texts somewhere online? Thx. PS: what are the dates of origin?

09-30-2005, 06:26 AM	#14
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Aquila, Peter Kirby's Early Christian Writings has both {Melito Tertullian}, I can't do links but you should be able to find it, or someone here, usually Toto, may provide a link. Presuming it is considered that one, or both even, of these writers are backdating the rise of Christianity to a time before that normally considered, what do we reckon the implications of such might be? Added: Melito's dates and all "facts'' related to him are shadowy at best...perhaps 160CE. Tertullian is c.200cCE.

09-30-2005, 06:42 PM	#17
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Also, the Therapeutae in Philo didn't worship Serapis, but the confusion may have arisen from different groups calling themselves the same thing.

10-01-2005, 07:53 AM	#19
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Ok I've read a bit more around Melito and Tertullian. Not a lot, a bit. Someone suggests that Tertullian derived his argument that only bad emperors persecuted the Christians from the passage by Melito. Seems plausible and accounts for their similarities so I'll tentatively consider buying that. Which, if we run with that, means we [I'm presuming others are interested] can focus on Melito. And for the life of me I cant see him doing anything else but backdating the Christian religion to a time that contradicts the gospels scenario. Well?

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