Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TedM · 08-05-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

That he died and was resurrected to conquer the flesh for all humans to have eternal life (?).

I would add to that the belief that he was sinless. Paul states this several times. Only a sinless man could be resurrected, thereby overcoming the curse of sin--death itself.

ted

Doug Shaver · 08-06-2006, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

What, according to anything he wrote, might he have known about Jesus that gave him any ideas about what his sacrifice meant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

That he died and was resurrected to conquer the flesh for all humans to have eternal life (?).

His death was the sacrifice. The granting of eternal life was what it meant. Are you saying that Paul inferred, from the resurrection, that the sacrificial death meant eternal life for all humans?

Doug Shaver · 08-06-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis

there are instances where he does mention Jesus that parallels gospel material

Paul does not mention Jesus in any of the following passages from those you listed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis

Rom. 12:14 = Lk. 6:27 -- Blessing of the persecuted
Rom. 12:17 = Lk. 6:29 -- Not repaying evil with evil
Rom 12:18 = Mk. 9:50 -- Peace among yourselves
Rom. 13:7 = Lk. 20:20-26 -- Paying taxes to authorities
Rom. 13:8-10 = Mk. 12:28-31 -- Loving Your Neighbor Sums Up Law
Rom. 14:10 = Lk. 6:37 -- Do not judge
Rom 14:13 = Lk. 17:1-4 -- No stumbling block
Rom. 14:14 = Mk. 7:15 -- Nothing is unclean
1 Thess 5:2 = Lk. 12:39 -- Thief in the night
1 Thess 5:13 = Mk. 9:50 -- Peace among yourselves
1 Thess 5:15 = Lk. 6:29 -- Not repaying evil with evil
1 Cor. 2:9: "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived..."
1 Cor. 4:8: "Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings!"
1 Cor. 10:27: "If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you."
1 Cor. 13:2: "If I have all faith, so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
Gal 2:28: "There is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Phil. 3:3: "For we are the true circumcision, who worships God in spirit."

Chris Weimer · 08-06-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

His death was the sacrifice. The granting of eternal life was what it meant. Are you saying that Paul inferred, from the resurrection, that the sacrificial death meant eternal life for all humans?

The eternal life bit was deduced and modernized. According to Paul, Christians will be saved from sin and resurrected after their death.

pharoah · 08-06-2006, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

I would add to that the belief that he was sinless. Paul states this several times. Only a sinless man could be resurrected, thereby overcoming the curse of sin--death itself.

ted

This raises more questions than it answers. It flatly contradicts Paul's doctrine of original sin. If all men are born in sin, then how did Jesus get exempted? If Paul knew of an HJ, then why didn't he attempt to resolve this glaring contradiction?

TedM · 08-06-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

This raises more questions than it answers. It flatly contradicts Paul's doctrine of original sin. If all men are born in sin, then how did Jesus get exempted? If Paul knew of an HJ, then why didn't he attempt to resolve this glaring contradiction?

Good questions. Perhaps the answer is that Paul didn't believe he was like normal humans, since he descended from the heavens, as God's pure Son, in order to become human. IOW he was pure to begin with, which enabled him to be 'exempt'..and human...somehow.

ted

Didymus · 08-06-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Paul makes an important Point that his Knowledge of Jesus is from Jesus and not from Man. I agree that Paul never Explicitly identifies a man telling him something Historical about Jesus. But what is the better Implication? That Jesus believers before and after Paul's Conversion told him something about a supposed Historical Jesus or never told him anything about a supposed Historical Jesus?

I don't recall Paul saying anything about his knowledge of Jesus or how it was obtained. He said:

I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

(italics mine)

As Paul describes it, and as you suggest, his gospel was the gospel of God's son, in other words, the Christian message (kerygema) of faith and salvation. It was not biographical or material facts about Jesus or anything else. Paul's gospel was of Christ, perhaps by Christ, but definitely not about Christ.

As some here know, I think the Silences are due to Paul's (and everyone's) ignorance regarding an obscure - but nonetheless human - individual named Jesus, aspects of whose crucifixion corresponded to messianic beliefs that were in the air - and which perhaps led to some dreams/visions that confirmed such wishful thinking. The gospel stories evolved over time from scriptural studies; there's no reason that Paul would have known them in 50.

Didymus

Doug Shaver · 08-07-2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

According to Paul, Christians will be saved from sin and resurrected after their death.

Yes. But what did he know for a fact about Jesus that made him think those things? And how did he come by that knowledge?

Solo · 08-08-2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

I would add to that the belief that he was sinless. Paul states this several times. Only a sinless man could be resurrected, thereby overcoming the curse of sin--death itself.

ted

Paul does not say that Jesus was sinless. In fact, he is emphatic that HJ was destroyed by sin, by weakness of flesh (2 Cor 13:4). Paul simply realized, having himself been "in Christ", and beside himself for God, that whatever HJ did while on Spirit, he did on an automatic pilot, so to speak. So he grants (2 Cor 5:21) μη γνοντα αμαρτιαν υπερ ημων αμαρτιαν εποιησεν , not knowing sin, (for us) he was made sin. To Paul that which redeemed HJ and which promised to redeem man in imitation of HJ, was not sinlessness but something called πιστις .

Jiri

TedM · 08-09-2006, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Paul does not say that Jesus was sinless. In fact, he is emphatic that HJ was destroyed by sin, by weakness of flesh (2 Cor 13:4).

"weakness of flesh" doesn't have to mean sin. Can you explain your position further?:

Quote:

4For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.

Quote:

Paul simply realized, having himself been "in Christ", and beside himself for God, that whatever HJ did while on Spirit, he did on an automatic pilot, so to speak. So he grants (2 Cor 5:21) μη γνοντα αμαρτιαν υπερ ημων αμαρτιαν εποιησεν , not knowing sin, (for us) he was made sin. To Paul that which redeemed HJ and which promised to redeem man in imitation of HJ, was not sinlessness but something called πιστις .

What does "not knowing sin" mean to you? Doesn't this passage imply that he didn't "know sin" prior to his death? I always thought "he was made sin" meant he took upon the sins of the world through his sacrificial death. And what is "niotic"(I can't make the characters).

ted

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