Mythra

Thanks for the link, malachi. Looks interesting.

I came upon a claim there that I'm not sure I've seen before: that Mark was clearly written as allegory and that the 1st century CE saw a revival of other allegorical writings. -

In essence, an allegory is a symbolic narrative. Allegorical writing was prominent in the Greek speaking world from about the 5th century BCE onward, but there was a particular revival of allegorical writing in the 1st century CE among both Jews and Neo-Platonic Greeks and Romans.

The writer of the article then compares the historical writings of Josephus and Livy - showing the amount of detail and writing style which is clearly missing in GMark.

What are some other allegorical writings which date to the first century C.E. ?

Malachi151

Hi Mythra.

I'm the author. Here are some examples of allegory from around the time, and some other comments on the issue:

Odes of Horace:
http://www.merriampark.com/horace.htm

THE ECLOGUES OF VIRGIL
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/virgil/ecl/index.htm

Also, Ovid's Metamorphoses.

I would also argue that much of the apocalyptic literature of the Jews during this time, which is discussed towards the end of the article, is also allegorical, and indeed Philo of Alexandria said that it was as well.

Info on ancient allegory:
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-lo....cgi?id=dv1-07

Mythra

wow. My compliments. I'm not done reading it yet, but it's very well written, and puts the data together into a very succinct and clear presentation. I'm very impressed.

Thank you

Aric2000

Jesus as an historical figure, existed, Jesus as the founder of Christianity, does NOT exist.

It was not his goal, he did not mean to create a religion, or a church.

He was a direct descendant of King David, and was the Inheritor, and King of the Jews.

He would have been the Jewish Messiah, had he been born a little later.

He was not trying to build a religion, he was trying to create a revolution, and kick the Romans out of Israel.

He was attempting to be the Jewish Messiah, he had the bloodlines, the education, and the backing. BUT, the Romans were still too strong, no matter what he tried, he could not have done waht he wanted to do, and so he failed.

Life's that way, his apostles attempted to continue in his stead, and later authors perverted what they were doing into a religion, instead of a revolution.

And, here we are, with a religion, that as it's head, was actually a normal human being, that just happened to be King of the Jews by blood, but failed miserably in becoming the true Jewish Messiah.

Pretty sad, if you ask me.

gstafleu

Isn't his nature, or what they believed his nature to be, what is at issue here? They may have believed he existed as a spiritual being, that wasn't all that unusual in those days.

Gerard Stafleu

aa5874

There is no extra-biblical evidence of Christians before the 2nd century, that is, no contemporary historian or writer made mention of any charismatic preacher and healer that had thousands of followers. And even when writers started to mention Jesus in the 2nd century, there were many concepts of Jesus, some claimed he was an apparition, others claimed his Father was not the 'Evil Jewish God', literally, others claimed he came directly to Earth, without being born. The disciples of Valentinus, according to Tertullian, believed Jesus was some kind of 'Aeon' ( a complex system of Gods or supernatural beings). Some even claimed Jesus was a magician from Egypt.

The versions of Christianity today were regarded as heresies or fiction very early, see 'Against Heresies' by Irenaeus. It would appear that one of these herectic versions had political support, in the form of Constantine, and is very prevalent today.

These are some of the persons and sects that regard versions of Christianity as heresy or fiction, according to Irenaeus: Ptolemy and Colorbasus, Marcosians, Simon Magus and Menander, Saturninus and Balisades, Caprocates, Cerdo and Marcion, Tatian, the Borborians, Cerinthus, the Ebionites, Sethian, the Ophites, the Valentinians and the Cainites.

Another problem faced with regards to the Jesus story, is that people were very superstitious 2000 years ago, people believed humans could fly from earth to heaven, and that devils could make you deaf or blind, dead people could come to life after at least four days and soldiers could ride chariots in the sky, so it is not unusual for people to believe Jesus was real, even though it has not been confirmed that he was actually born.

GakuseiDon

A spiritual being like a daemon, yes. But a spiritual being who came in the flesh, or from a tribe like Judah, or born of a woman, all without being on earth -- that would be unprecedented AFAIK.

driver8

I think that in order to understand the big picture of the bible, old or new, you have to view it as a political document as much as a religious or philosophical one. The superstitions are patently unbelievable (to this modernist), but they must have had a purpose in uniting and/or subjugating followers. I think you also have to consider that the stories could have been used for monetary motivations. What great event has not had a political or monetary basis, and how readily can you distinguish between the two?

My hope is that someone more educated than I develop this hypothesis into a better understanding of how we arrived where we are. It needs to be treated like a crime scene where motivation and opportunity are the key questions to be answered.