Wisdom's Child

I've been pondering the basis of the Apologetic techniques, and I would like to put forward a hypothetical scenario.

From the standpoint of the Star Wars Genre, assuming that Obi Wan recieved the Revelation of the Truth through the Force (which happens to be George Lucas' choice for acting Supernaturally within His Created Universe)
Would it be possible for Obi Wan to convince Han Solo that George Lucas exists?
How could you explain that the entire Star Wars Universe complete with History, Culture, and Geography that spans Billions of Years, is actually not quite 50 years old?
How do you explain to Han Solo that The Emperor was Defeated by Darth Vader before The Clone Wars?
How was Darth Vaders attack upon The Emperor anything but His own Free Will Choice?

Ahab

Sure. George Lucas would just need to write in a scene where Obi Wan convinces Solo of Lucas' existence.

johntheapostate

All these charachters exist as a projection of there creators imagination into film. To say that the projected image is in any way responsible for its own existance is not logical. Darth Vaders attack was not the result of him existing prior to his creators conceptualization of him and forcing his creator to project Darth Vader into reality.

Ojuice5001

Note, however, that this wouldn't mean that Han Solo was rationally justified in believing in Lucas. It would just mean he was convinced. And if someone repeats what Obi-Wan said to some minor character, and that minor character applies the standards of evidence that atheists set for the gods, he will not be convinced. An interesting line of thought that leads to the gods' existence not being provable either way.

So yes, Wisdom's Child was right on the money with this one.

Ahab

All Lucas need do is write the script so that Solo is rationally justified in believing in Lucas. And every time someone repeats what Obi-Wan said, the character hearing it knows there is a rational justification for believing in Lucas.

Ojuice5001

What do you mean by "write the script so that Solo is rationally justified in believing in Lucas"? Is there some particular kind of event in the script that would do the trick? But if so, what kind of event would that be, and would you yourself be convinced by it, or would most skeptics be?

On the other hand, standards of evidence are relative to whoever sets the standards. So yes, it would be possible for Lucas to give all of his characters standards of evidence that are satisfied by the evidence that the characters have (and that Lucas's own standards are also satisfied). If he did this, then Solo would be rationally justified in that sense. Still, that would entail that no one in the Star Wars universe sets the same standards of evidence as some people in the real universe.

anonymite

If Lucas, in his infinite love for all creation, really wanted for Han Solo to be convinced, Lucas could make the same revelation to him, directly. Or as Ahab said, he could set up a rational basis for believing in him. For example, his characters have a rational basis for believing in the lethality of lightsabres, because its lethality is empircally demonstrable, despite the fact that it's just a frickin wave of light.

Ahab

Or the fact that they can hear explosions in space.

How can a fantasy world in which the laws of physics are routinely violated be seriously used as an apolgetical device to support the claim that God (or Mr. L) really exists?

Ahab

The Star Wars world is Mr. Lucas' creation. It is up to him to make the kind of people that populate it and to have them think what he wants.
Of course, he does have to make the whole bloody thing entertaining enought to attract a large fan base so that he can reap a huge amount of money.

So?

Wiploc

Now you've moved the goalposts. To satisfy that new goal, the new solution is to write a scene in which Han Solo is rationally justified in believing in Lucas.




If you make that the goal, then the solution becomes to write in the script that evidence does satisfy the standards of evidence that atheists set for the godes, and that the minor characters are convinced.




I'll go with you this far: In our world, there is no reason to believe in god.

crc