Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jgibson000 · 06-27-2006, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Ben, why is that not magical thinking?

I wonder if you'd be kind enough to do us the following favours:

1. State clearly and definitively what you think "magical thinking" actually is.

2. Demonstrate by citing and quoting primary sources that testify to the fact not only that anyone in the Hellenistic period actually engaged in such thinking, but that it was a vital and indellible part of the mindset and practice of most 1st century Jews and Greeks.

Thanks in advance.

Jeffrey Gibson

Clivedurdle · 06-27-2006, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Paul here operates on the principle that the redeemer had to be like those redeemed

Magical thinking has a different concept of cause.

Our scientific world view assumes that "the redeemer being like the redeemed" means they are both flesh. This is classic cause and effect.

But the earlier pre scientific magical mode of thinking saw it differently. the wiki link explains it well, especially the termite story!

So as I see it it is for anyone asserting an HJ to prove that whover was writing was thinking in our modern scientific sense about likeness and not in a magical sense. As part of that it is necessary to show the magical thinking explanation is wrong.

You are correct about the principle of likeness here, but there are two mutually exclusive explanations for this likeness!

Clivedurdle · 06-27-2006, 08:36 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

Quote:

According to Frazer, magical thinking depends on two laws: the law of similarity (an effect resembles its cause), and the law of contagion (things which were once in physical contact maintain a connection even after physical contact has been broken). These two laws govern the operation of what Frazer called "sympathetic magic", the idea that the manipulation of effigies or similar symbols or tokens can cause changes to occur in the thing the symbol represented. The use of voodoo dolls is a typical example of sympathetic magic. Others have described these two laws as examples of "analogical reasoning" (rather than logical reasoning).
Typically, people use magic to attempt to explain things that science has not yet explained, or to attempt to control things that science cannot. The classic example is of the collapsing roof, described in E. E. Evans-Pritchard's Witchcraft, Magic, and Oracles Among the Azande, in which the Azande claimed that a roof fell on a particular person because of a magical spell cast by another person. The Azande did understand a scientific explanation for the collapsing room (that termites had eaten through the supporting posts), but pointed out that this scientific explanation could not explain why the roof happened to collapse at precisely the same moment that the particular man was resting beneath it. Thus, from the point of view of the practitioners, magic explains what scientists would call "coincidences" or "contingency". From the point of view of outside observers, magic is a way of making coincidences meaningful in social terms. Carl Jung coined the word synchronicity for experiences of this type.

Adherents of magical belief systems often do not see their beliefs as being magical.

Quote:

Noting the great similarity of magical thinking in all types of human societies and eras of recorded history, some cognitive scientists suggest that these ways of thinking are intrinsic to humanity. Many articles in neuroscience have shown that the human brain excels at pattern matching, but that humans do not have a good filter for distinguishing between perceived patterns and actual patterns. Thus, people often are led to see "relationships" between actions that don't actually exist, creating a magical belief.

dog-on · 06-27-2006, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Many articles in neuroscience have shown that the human brain excels at pattern matching, but that humans do not have a good filter for distinguishing between perceived patterns and actual patterns. Thus, people often are led to see "relationships" between actions that don't actually exist, creating a magical belief.

Clive, and no where is this better illustrated than in a fundamentalist's view of biblical prophesy.

Ted Hoffman · 06-27-2006, 08:48 AM

Jeffrey,
The word is spelt i-n-d-e-l-i-b-l-e, not i-n-d-e-l-l-i-b-l-e. But since you have studied language to the highest levels, we will presume that that was a typo.
How does one arrive at the conclusion that an idea is a vital part of a mindset of a group of people?
For example, what would qualify plantocracy as a vital concept in the minds of early European settlers in Africa?
What is common among Greeks is not an ideology, but a cultural heritage and geographical location. The same applies to Jews with the probable addition of race. How does one translate these non-ideological and non-conceptual characteristics to an evaluation of a presumably homogeneous mindset?

jgibson000 · 06-27-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

I asked for citations and quotations of primary, not secondary sources, let alone secondary summaries of 100 year old -- and over turned --scholarship.

Can you give them to me? Or, despite the certainty of your pronouncements on this topic, is your "knowledge" of it only third hand.

And where is the actual, not presumptive or syllogistic, evidence that "magical thinking" was a vital part of the mindset and thinking practice of 1st century Jews and Greeks? Again, primary texts please!

Jeffrey Gibson

Clivedurdle · 06-27-2006, 08:55 AM

I have been steeped in this type of magical thinking since a child! It is very hard to recognise it!

The eucharist, bread and wine into flesh and blood - identical process to sticking pins in a voodoo doll.

At the name of Jesus, whole books, myriads of stuff on this.

Prayer, healing, Israel, second coming. The Lamb of God.

I am surprised, like the post above that I have to show where Greeks did magical thinking - we all do it. and always have done!

I suppose the apologist response is on the lines of religio instead of superstitio, but the reality is it is only more sophisticated magick!

I have only recently become aware that there are far more magic abracadbra phrases in the Bible than I realised - born of a woman, according to the flesh, in fact all the stuff hjists put forward are doctrinal, ritualitic, magical!

Clivedurdle · 06-27-2006, 09:01 AM

Magical thinking is ubiquitous in all societies and to all humanity!

Quote:

Noting the great similarity of magical thinking in all types of human societies and eras of recorded history, some cognitive scientists suggest that these ways of thinking are intrinsic to humanity. Many articles in neuroscience have shown that the human brain excels at pattern matching, but that humans do not have a good filter for distinguishing between perceived patterns and actual patterns. Thus, people often are led to see "relationships" between actions that don't actually exist, creating a magical belief.

What was all that sitting in volcanic fumes the Greeks got up to about? The druids, when they sacrificed a human, would watch the death throes and use them as signs and portents.

What happened according to the gospels at the death of Christ?

Quote:

[50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
[54] Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

NatSciNarg · 06-27-2006, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

2. Demonstrate by citing and quoting primary sources that testify to the fact not only that anyone in the Hellenistic period actually engaged in such thinking, but that it was a vital and indellible part of the mindset and practice of most 1st century Jews and Greeks.

Since only a very small percentage of the Empire converted in the first century, whether most of the 1st century Jews and Greeks had this magical mindset is surely not the point - it only requires the small proportion to have be attuned to this way of thinking. All the others could have thought that it was utter rubbish. Perhaps they did. So, instead of asking for evidence that most 1st centrury Jews and Greeks thought like this, perhaps we should just ask for some evidence that some did.

Best wishes,
Matthew

No Robots · 06-27-2006, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

The problem I see with all of this is not only that iyour are working from certain hidden assumptions about what "to be God" is, but that you assume what needs to be proven. Is it really the case that within a generation of Jesus death there was anyone, let alone lots of Jews, who belived that Jesus was "God"?

I think you are both misunderstanding the nature and the import of the "divinity" language used of Jesus in the NT as well as filtering that language through later Calcedonian Christology.

Absolutely right!

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06-27-2006, 08:48 AM	#65
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Jeffrey, The word is spelt i-n-d-e-l-i-b-l-e, not i-n-d-e-l-l-i-b-l-e. But since you have studied language to the highest levels, we will presume that that was a typo. How does one arrive at the conclusion that an idea is a vital part of a mindset of a group of people? For example, what would qualify plantocracy as a vital concept in the minds of early European settlers in Africa? What is common among Greeks is not an ideology, but a cultural heritage and geographical location. The same applies to Jews with the probable addition of race. How does one translate these non-ideological and non-conceptual characteristics to an evaluation of a presumably homogeneous mindset?

06-27-2006, 08:55 AM	#67
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I have been steeped in this type of magical thinking since a child! It is very hard to recognise it! The eucharist, bread and wine into flesh and blood - identical process to sticking pins in a voodoo doll. At the name of Jesus, whole books, myriads of stuff on this. Prayer, healing, Israel, second coming. The Lamb of God. I am surprised, like the post above that I have to show where Greeks did magical thinking - we all do it. and always have done! I suppose the apologist response is on the lines of religio instead of superstitio, but the reality is it is only more sophisticated magick! I have only recently become aware that there are far more magic abracadbra phrases in the Bible than I realised - born of a woman, according to the flesh, in fact all the stuff hjists put forward are doctrinal, ritualitic, magical!

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