Freethought & Rationalism Archive

storytime · 01-08-2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

I'm speculating of course, but it seems that rebellious sons were the youth who were know-it-all's, stubborn and disrespectful teenagers. Like teens behave today. However, in those ancient times loyalty to the peopled nation had it's advantages in civil order[to live, prolong their life], honor and pride of name and identity. Laws were given to support the higher standard of nation building because circumcision alone could not provide judging but laws could enforce punishment of the rebellious sons of Israel. Stoning would put the evil away from the nation and the behavior of the rebellious sons would not have opportunity to influence others, the "sin" not becoming tolerated.

Murder, other offenses that caused harm to people was punishable by stoning. Treason was a transgression punishable by death in stoning. From a few articles I've read, stoning might have been throwing hughe rocks or pushing or throwing someone off a building or high cliff to land on stone beneath. In the NT story Jesus was led to a cliff with intention of killing him but he escaped. Throwing him off a cliff may have been called stoning to death.

Jesus changed no laws for the Jews so the laws for punishment remained the standard practice. Jesus also didn't change the sacrificial system as he used animal and fowl in ritual. Jesus in his Judaism had no authority outside his Jewish tradition, as laws established for Israel[sons of Jacob] were never given to any other people. The definition of sin was transgression of laws. And where there is no law of Israel there is no sin[transgression] to be applied. Sugarhitman will surely disagree of course as he attempts to bring every person on earth under the false precept of sin.

Yeah, but the world now knows the law....so whats your excuse.

I don't need an excuse. I'm not a sinner.

SeekingKnowledge · 01-09-2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was replying to a post by sugarhitman where he was going on about rebels and was making a little joke. He certainly seemed to have had a few extra hits of sugar yesterday. I hadn't noticed you were from the south, and assumed you were not a fundamentalist.

You were also not involved in my other posts, your original post was reasonable, some of the posts afterwards by other people were the focus of my comment.

It's not called for to make moral judgements on people from a world so far in the past, and this seemed worth commenting about. I think sceptics have a responsibility to discuss these issues on a higher level than that often shown by believers.

I made a general apology about offending anyone. It's easy in these forums not to read carefully and I've been guilty of that myself.

"Southern Hillbilly"? is that something like a racial slur?

And I don't think that applies to African Americans (which I am)

Or maybe Southern Hillbilly isn't what you really want to say.

I know this is a derail.. But what, exactly, is it about being of African decent that makes you think terms like "southern" or "hillbilly" don't apply to you? Does being a different skin color make you immune to poverty, ignorance, or injustice? Maybe it's a Texas thing?

Just curious..

Bokoura · 01-09-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeekingKnowledge

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

"Southern Hillbilly"? is that something like a racial slur?

And I don't think that applies to African Americans (which I am)

Or maybe Southern Hillbilly isn't what you really want to say.

I know this is a derail.. But what, exactly, is it about being of African decent that makes you think terms like "southern" or "hillbilly" don't apply to you? Does being a different skin color make you immune to poverty, ignorance, or injustice? Maybe it's a Texas thing?

Just curious..

I agree, but getting off topic. Please discuss stoning sons.

storytime · 01-09-2009, 06:11 PM

What benefit was a son if he didn't honor his father and his mother? What value did the Hebrew god place on rebellious sons?

SeekingKnowledge · 01-09-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bokoura

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeekingKnowledge

I know this is a derail.. But what, exactly, is it about being of African decent that makes you think terms like "southern" or "hillbilly" don't apply to you? Does being a different skin color make you immune to poverty, ignorance, or injustice? Maybe it's a Texas thing?

Just curious..

I agree, but getting off topic. Please discuss stoning sons.

My apologies.. (maybe I should start a new thread asking why "southern fundie hillbilly" is a racial slur?) as a suggestion.. It might be more discussion worthy for you to post a little more than just a bible verse and a request for comments.. You haven't been very specific about what you would like the topic to be.. :huh:

Back to the (apparent) topic:

Why is it that none of the fundies have pointed out that stoning your son to death because he's a loser isn't acceptable by todays standards?

mountainman · 01-09-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bokoura

Please discuss stoning sons.

Dear Bokoura,

Does Crispus qualify for a mention?

Best wishes,

Pete

Toto · 01-09-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bokoura

Please discuss stoning sons.

....
Does Crispus qualify for a mention?...

No - not Jewish, not stoned according to YHWH's law, not relevant.

SeekingKnowledge · 01-09-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

What benefit was a son if he didn't honor his father and his mother? What value did the Hebrew god place on rebellious sons?

What if his mother and father were idiots or liars? What if they didn't want their son marrying the woman he loved, and he was defiant? The story doesn't say..

When left to come to our own conclusions, why do we come to the (errant) conclusion that we should stone grown men who are defiant to their parents, or a drunkards? YOu don't see anyting wrong with that?'

What benefit was he if he didn't benefit his parents? What kind of a question is that to ask?

Joan of Bark · 01-10-2009, 01:20 AM

Hey sugarhitman ...

Matthew 15:24

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Jesus was preaching only to other Jews ...

And if you consider a God who tortures children and slaughters everyone "holy", then you have a bizarre sense of the word.

As for me, I've been a rebel for going on 30 years now, and so far, God hasn't found a way to punish me. Face it, He doesn't exist.

storytime · 01-10-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeekingKnowledge

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

What benefit was a son if he didn't honor his father and his mother? What value did the Hebrew god place on rebellious sons?

What if his mother and father were idiots or liars? What if they didn't want their son marrying the woman he loved, and he was defiant? The story doesn't say..

When left to come to our own conclusions, why do we come to the (errant) conclusion that we should stone grown men who are defiant to their parents, or a drunkards? YOu don't see anyting wrong with that?'

What benefit was he if he didn't benefit his parents? What kind of a question is that to ask?

I would imagine that there were many idiot and lying parents back then just as there are idiot and lying parents today.

From my reading of the OT story, an unbeneficial son was the same as an unproductive son, one whose defiant attitude or behavior was seen as dishonoring the parents and shaming them, not contributing to the welfare of the parents or community at large; and also seen as a threat to the whole body of people in rebelliousness. There is seen a loyalty factor of obedience to tradition that supported civil order within the construct of that governmental process which was established in its form for the protection, independence of nation, and security in prolonged life. ("for lack of knowledge my people perish") The strictness is evident by laws given.

How would a productive honorable son have appeared? Obedient with the higher standard of honor with which he was taught to strive for. If his parents were idiots or liars, as an honorable son he would still be expected to care for his disabled parents, but this may not mean that his parents were not subject to punishment of laws themselves. Liars were dishonorable, idiots were, well, ignored, maybe.

For an example of parents not wanting their rebellious son to marry outside their clan, read about Esau. Esau, was shunned, never to attain recognition as a son of Israel again. He married several women outside his clan and his nation became known as Edomites, and people that God hated forever. He could not go back once he dishonored his parents and his god. He became as a traitor in his mixed marriage to women of the land. So he was doomed to be an enemy of Israel and God forever.

The purpose of punishing an offense in disloyalty by stoning to death a traitor in those days is no different than executing a man for treason today. Spys who endanger their nation today are sometimes executed but most likely imprisoned for life. Israel today and other nations also, imprison people for disloyalty considered treasonous affairs. The reason is, that treasonous affairs such as spying, endanger the very lives of the citizenry, innocent people, who want to live and prolong their lives on earth. One might say that survival depends on it.

:wave:

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01-09-2009, 06:11 PM	#64
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	What benefit was a son if he didn't honor his father and his mother? What value did the Hebrew god place on rebellious sons?

01-10-2009, 01:20 AM	#69
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Hey sugarhitman ... Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." Jesus was preaching only to other Jews ... And if you consider a God who tortures children and slaughters everyone "holy", then you have a bizarre sense of the word. As for me, I've been a rebel for going on 30 years now, and so far, God hasn't found a way to punish me. Face it, He doesn't exist.

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