Mughal

I think the problem is not secularism or secularists because such ideology and such people are not opposed to accommodating others who are equally willing to compromise. All this because we all know it is a manmade ideology and for the good of people in this world. Since we have created the ideology and all its relevant systems, structures and practices, we can make amendments and tailor it the way it suits us.

The uncompromising attitude comes from religion and the religious. Why? Because the religious ideology claimed by its followers is said to be revealed by their god. Since god is not under man so people have no right to make any amendments to god's words and none is authorised to compromise on behalf of god. Thus religious are forced to follow their religious scriptures as they are. This is where we end up with the problem that one people are willing to make changes in their position to accommodate other people but the others are not because they have trapped themselves due to their make belief. Now whose fault is it if religious people are unwilling to be self critical? Therefore in order to protect our freedom we too are forced to refuse to compromise our position as well.

Now the question we should ask muslims is, are they willing to go against their quranic teachings and islamic beliefs and practices in order to accommodate others? The answer you will get from each and every muslim who believes in the quran will be, I will die but not give up any of my islamic beliefs nor compromise my islam to accommodate others. This is the kind of people we are dealing with. If one word of the quran is accepted corrupt by anyone of the muslims, that person will no longer be a muslim. The quran is not just a holy book for the muslim but a book that commands ultimate respect and authority.

This is why if muslim are not willing to be secularists even in the least then we do not need to be muslims either even in the least bit. So ball is in the muslim court. As soon as they change their position, they will find us humanists willing partners in peace and harmony. Islam is therefore dangerous because each and every muslim child is indoctrinated that the quran is the perfect word of god never to be compromised even if one has to die for it. This is why it is of primary importance that we discuss what muslims think of all this and not what we the nonmulims think. We have no problem in accommodating muslims but muslim cannot be accommodated for their own lack of tolerance. This intolerance is quite visible in the states wherein muslims are the majority or are a considerable minority eg in saudi arabia and india etc.

Now coming to states with a tiny muslim minority, we must not take comfort in that because they will soon become the majority by virtue of their birth rate as compared to others. One can look at statistics about india. Compare the hindu muslim population ratio before the partition of india and now.

Likewise the problem is not with aspects of religion in general and islam in particular when we have similarity but only where differences arise. Now differences only arise because islam has tribal primitive or backward outlook on life and people, hence the laws of islam cause the problem. Now instead of blaming the cuase of the problem, if we blamed ourselves then what good would that do to our cause ie humanity?

It is very wrong to think that since others have religious freedom so why not muslims? One must realise that all others have gone through reforms to such a degree that hindus, parsis, jews, christians, sikhs etc etc have accepted secularism whereas muslims have not. We know this because we have no terrorists amongst them following them around telling them to give up secularism or they are dead. Muslims kill even each other for reasons such as this. This is why people like myself are living in hiding in order to stay safe. How many hindus, parsis, jews, chrisitians or sikhs etc are living in hiding for a reason such as this? The situation is not going to change until and unless muslims accept fallibility of the quran and its manmade origin at least to some degree. Also we must stop religious people from indoctrinating their kids. Education is not about dogmatic indoctrination but enabling kids to be able to explore the world in all respects and develop the ability to understand it. Helping kids to understand how world works is not dogmatic indoctrination because it will help them fit in better.

atheist

Mughal isn't just making up ideas in his head, but is speaking as someone with first hand insight, and certainly isn't the only one who holds this viewpoint. Myself, I really appreciate Mughal's postings. It presents a point of view with a background very different from my own. However, I sometimes think that his presentation is lost on those, who like myself, don't really have a keen understanding of where he is coming from.

I'll go out on a limb here and attempt to re-present what I've been hearing; bluntly, if I must...

As to the "muslim conspiracy": How many ex-muslims (and even moderate muslims) shall we introduce that would support the idea that introducing sharia courts is part of a "more sinister" plan by radical proponents? This suspicion isn't without merit.

The evidence presents itself as thus: Radical muslims will abuse any system they can towards the goal of replacing it with their own. They will believe that they are absolutely right about doing so, even if using the most unscrupulous means thinkable, because it is all for "Islam". This isn't bigotted prejudice speaking, but the blunt fact of the matter. This isn't speculative. Some of the real life evidence presents itself almost everyday on the news, and I bet that that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface when considering everything else that isn't reported.

I really have to question jbernier's understanding of islamic culture. Utimately, sharia courts may end up to be a non-issue when presented in the light of Canadian law and policies. However, certainly there must be an understanding as to why the very mention of sharia courts immediately sets of warning bells to non-muslism, ex-muslisms, and even muslims themselves.


I'll slip into my flame-retardant undies and await the onslaught...

Gregg

Perhaps you should read "The Trouble With Islam" by Irshad Manji. Visit her website at www.muslimrefusenik.com.

Gregg

No onslaught here. You are absolutely right. Frankly, I do not understand why jbernier is defending Muslims so vigorously and is so willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in this matter. I believe I asked you earlier, jbernier, if you would respond the same way to a similar initiative by fundamentalist Christians.

Islam's "golden age" of learning was long ago, and its end was not brought on by European conquest or colonialism, but by the demands of empire. In order to prevent the fragmentation of the empire and the faith, Islamic leaders closed hundreds of schools and "froze" the faith, permitting only a few people to interpret and make decisions regarding it. Islam has mostly been a stagnant, fundamentalist religion ever since, whereas while Judaism and Christianity have their fundamentalists, they also have strong liberal and progressive elements and traditions.

Most Muslims today, even if they are not radicals or extremists, are nevertheless fundamentalists. Fundamentalism IS mainstream Islam. The Qu'ran IS the word of God, infallible and perfect in every respect. There is a liberal tradition in Islam, but it has been marginalized for a long time.

Since we have a hard time trusting that fundamentalist Christians can and will respect the principle of church/state separation, I simply do not understand why jbernier thinks we can depend on fundamentalist Muslims to do so, especially when most Muslim immigrants come from countries where church/state separation is a bizarre, alien concept.

Mughal

The reason an ex-muslim has to live in hiding is fear of being harmed in various ways. Not only personally but also as regard wife and children. Not only mentally but physically as well. What happens is that once you leave islam ie become an apostate of islam, your wife is no longer married to you. She is reagarded as an adulterous living with a nonmuslims so she deserves to be put to death by stoning.

Your children lose honour for not taking care of their parents ie killing them. They are thought of as gutless having no courage and so have to live in shame boycotted by community. Also you have to watch your back all the time because you never know who loves Allah most dearly to get some more goodies in his hereafter bag by killing you.

Read about people murdered or disabled for life in islamic countries on the streets by such lunatics for expressing their unislamic views. Think about why I and many others like me are living in hiding, not in islamic countries but in britain and other european countries. Many such people are livimng like that even in the canada and the usa. People like me cannot debate islam openly even in these countries because some one somewhere will come to know who we are. If we could debate islam face to face it would be out of its dept in no time because face to face exchange of ideas has much more powerful appeal and effect.

Since we apostate cannot come out in the open for obvious reasons, we rely on good will of our nonmuslim friends. Now if nonmuslims keep giving consideration to muslims then we feel yet more trapped and in much more hopeless situation. This is why muslims need to be forced to stop oppressing others by following dangerous beliefs and practices that harm people as explained. If they do not change their such stance then neither should we. They must stop killing us and our loved ones because of us. They must stop disrepecting us and our loved ones. Muslim expect us to respect them dispite their holding on to their barbarity, so they need to be made aware that this is not going to happen or they will not stop what they believe and do, thinking that they are doing the right thing or that none can stop them from getting their way.

Gregg

Here's a good comment from a reader of Irshad Manji's book "The Trouble With Islam" (www.muslimrefusenik.com):

"Your book sure made me remember my reaction after 9/11. Without knowing anything about Islam or the Muslim world, I would furiously chastise others as racists and anti-Muslim bigots for criticizing Islam or even Muslim societies.

Is it possible for tolerance to become a blinding dogma? I think some of the equations I used to make (oppression of women in Islamic countries = plastic surgery, commercialization of our sexuality in the West) and I think: yeah, when tolerance relies heavily on moral relativism, it does become a blinding dogma. It did for me, until I started learning more about Muslim countries and reading about Islamism and Sharia laws. That's when I had to stop and do a little self-questioning about what I really believe in and value, and whether being tolerant of intolerance is something that made sense. It didn't.

I think you've written a very important book at a very critical time in our world. Three cheers for progressive Muslims such as you to reform Islam" - Alexandra