Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yummyfur · 05-04-2005, 06:50 PM

Thanks Toto, I think there might be more in this Homily about Britain.
I was thinking that it might be possible that Origen mentioned Boodicia, this was a "Queen" of the Iceni tribe in Britain, who led a large battle against the Romans at the end of the first century. If Origen mentioned her offhand, his readers would probably know her, as it was a fairly famous rebellion (70,000 Roman soldiers killed), but possibly someone got the idea in their head that this word implied Buddhists.

Toto · 05-04-2005, 07:04 PM

ROMANS IN BRITAINE by Camden

Quote:

But to this purpose maketh especially that which erewhile I alleged out of Tertullian, as also that which Origen recordeth how the Britans with one consent embraced the Faith, and made way themselves unto God by meanes of the Druidae, who alwaies did beat upon this article of beleefe, that there was but one God.

I have a suspicion that those who claim that Origen mentioned Buddhists in Britain have already assumed that Druids were Buddhist.

yummyfur · 05-04-2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

ROMANS IN BRITAINE by Camden

I have a suspicion that those who claim that Origen mentioned Buddhists in Britain have already assumed that Druids were Buddhist.

Thanks Toto!!!, the next line is important, my thinking might be right and Origen might mention Boodicia, the Queen of the Iceni as well, maybe as a time marker as to when Christianity became prominent in Britain. Someone unknowledgable on Roman/British history might have read this word and thought buddhists.

From the source you qouted from above, but with additional line

"But to this purpose maketh especially that which erewhile I alleged out of Tertullian, as also that which Origen recordeth how the Britans with one consent embraced the Faith, and made way themselves unto God by meanes of the Druidae, who alwaies did beat upon this article of beleefe, that there was but one God. And verily of great moment and importance is that with me, that Gildas, after he had mentioned the rebellion of Boodicia and treated of the revenge thereof,"

Toto · 05-04-2005, 07:25 PM

I was having some trouble understanding what Camden meant by that, and who actually mentioned the rebellion - Origin or Gildas??

In any case, I have't found Jerome's or Origen's homilies so far.

yummyfur · 05-04-2005, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I was having some trouble understanding what Camden meant by that, and who actually mentioned the rebellion - Origin or Gildas??

In any case, I have't found Jerome's or Origen's homilies so far.

I think he means Gildas(but it is unclear), but if Gildas uses the Boodician rebellion as a time marker for Christianity in Britain, it's quite possible that Origen does too.

Dharma · 05-04-2005, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The page referenced above says
Which is basically what I was saying.

In other words The distinctive doctrines of Mahayana are considerably later than Ashoka.

Andrew Criddle

Actually, the division of two, Mahayana was called the Mahasangha (the greater sangha), occurred quite early until the FINAL schism, when it was FINALLY called Mahayana which occurred around 1st century bce...by this time most of the moralistic ideas and the story of the Buddha had been concretized with more and more Boddhisatvas entering the picture, and Buddhism entering growing other schools, such as the tantric schools, and the Mahayana Buddhists of the western provinces were continuing to desseminate their traditions quite strongly as Dharma Bhaanakas (missionaries) under the support of indigenous and foreign kings such as Kanishka as late as 2 ce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanishka

Dharma · 05-04-2005, 08:04 PM

thanks everyone for double checking much of the information : however, there is further evidence that Buddhist missionaries did reach Europe, and the Buddhists did reach Siberia from Mongolia, which is still Buddhist:

http://eeliag.netwiz.net/CHAP3.html

Quote:

The waterways that pass through Russia provided a means of transportation and linkages into the political and social structures of the areas. The Swedish Vikings had to secure these waterways in order to control Near Eastern and Mediterranean trade. The waterways allowed many Vikings to reach distant lands as far as Baghdad, carrying trade goods and luxury items. Items found in graves in Scandinavia have included Indian coins from the sixth or seventh century, a brass Buddha, silks, and glass, indicating the far-reaching territories with which trade was accomplished and thus the distances traveled. These items were collected on extended trading expeditions, and it is not unreasonable to infer that others of like kind may have been dispersed along the trade route.

And of course there were Buddhist missionaries in Athens Greece, as it was recorded by them that some Buddhist set himself afire to show the temporal nature of existence.

I wouldn't be surprised that some of these missionaries reached the Americas.

yummyfur · 05-05-2005, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

thanks everyone for double checking much of the information : however, there is further evidence that Buddhist missionaries did reach Europe, and the Buddhists did reach Siberia from Mongolia, which is still Buddhist:

http://eeliag.netwiz.net/CHAP3.html
The waterways that pass through Russia provided a means of transportation and linkages into the political and social structures of the areas. The Swedish Vikings had to secure these waterways in order to control Near Eastern and Mediterranean trade. The waterways allowed many Vikings to reach distant lands as far as Baghdad, carrying trade goods and luxury items. Items found in graves in Scandinavia have included Indian coins from the sixth or seventh century, a brass Buddha, silks, and glass, indicating the far-reaching territories with which trade was accomplished and thus the distances traveled. These items were collected on extended trading expeditions, and it is not unreasonable to infer that others of like kind may have been dispersed along the trade route.

And of course there were Buddhist missionaries in Athens Greece, as it was recorded by them that some Buddhist set himself afire to show the temporal nature of existence.

I wouldn't be surprised that some of these missionaries reached the Americas.

Unfortunatly the paper you referenced is not footnoted, so we have no idea where the author is getting their information. Considering that the Vikings had a regular excursion to the Caspian Sea area and beyond for a period, is it suprising to find a brass buddha, it's hardly proof of buddhist missionaries being in Scandanavia, especially since there is only one. It seems much more likely this was gained in trade or raid in and around the Caspian Sea or Persia.

Dharma · 05-05-2005, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

Unfortunatly the paper you referenced is not footnoted, so we have no idea where the author is getting their information. Considering that the Vikings had a regular excursion to the Caspian Sea area and beyond for a period, is it suprising to find a brass buddha, it's hardly proof of buddhist missionaries being in Scandanavia, especially since there is only one. It seems much more likely this was gained in trade or raid in and around the Caspian Sea or Persia.

again, to suppose that Buddhists can enter Siberia, go to Athens ( which I'm sure you'll agree is Europe) simply to burn themselves, have huge trades between countries and have Jews run off to Cochin India (BUT, Jesus coming to India, NAH! IMPOSSIBLE) and then imply they were not adventurous enough to enter Scandinavia belies any logical thinking...but then we digress...

This thread is about Buddhism influencing Christianity - which I'm sure you'll agree was developed in the middle east/ central asia, which was then ruled for the most part by the Greek descendants of Alexander's generals, ALL of whom allowed a huge number of Buddhist missionaries to enter and set up missions and monastaries in their territories and thus the obvious influence.

Dharma · 05-05-2005, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is this guy the model for Jesus?

Wikipedia Ashoka

Indeed, I had not noticed this post. Interestingly enough I have posted one of his Edicts which stresses that he wants to conquer and set an example to his descendants to conquer using the Dharma and not violence and that he thinks of salvation and the next world.

Interestingly enough, many Jews resented this Jesus fella claiming to be king of Israel, when he couldn't even fight, heck he even died without resistance. Jesus says the same thing. Ashok became a legend in Buddhism, and I would not be surprised if his example in monastic communities (many of which were ministered by his sons and daughters) would be considered that of the ideal Dharma king.

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05-04-2005, 06:50 PM	#41
yummyfur Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 351	Thanks Toto, I think there might be more in this Homily about Britain. I was thinking that it might be possible that Origen mentioned Boodicia, this was a "Queen" of the Iceni tribe in Britain, who led a large battle against the Romans at the end of the first century. If Origen mentioned her offhand, his readers would probably know her, as it was a fairly famous rebellion (70,000 Roman soldiers killed), but possibly someone got the idea in their head that this word implied Buddhists.

05-04-2005, 07:25 PM	#44
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I was having some trouble understanding what Camden meant by that, and who actually mentioned the rebellion - Origin or Gildas?? In any case, I have't found Jerome's or Origen's homilies so far.

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