Ben C Smith

Okay, but I think Chili has your number here.

Ben.

PS: I actually meant to write that I think of science as a discipline involving (a collection) method(s), but no matter. It was a minor point to begin with.

aa5874

Can please name a mathematician who claimed it is not always true that 2+2 is equal to 4?

Scientific theories are not developed on guesses or faith-based beliefs, scientific theories are tested rigorously using available information and specialised equipment.

There is just no comparison between faith-based untested beliefs to scientific theories.

The internet is not a miracle, it is a product of scientific theories tested and proven.

DCHindley

I guess, formally, "Axioms and postulates are the basic assumptions underlying a given body of deductive knowledge. They are accepted without demonstration. All other assertions (theorems, if we are talking about mathematics) must be proven with the aid of the basic assumptions."

An Axiom is a self-evident assumption. They are self evident because they conform to our collective experiences. This is what we "know". Certain basic hypotheses that had to be accepted without proof are known as Postulates. Postulates thus serve as common-sensical facts drawn from our experience. A Theorem is a formula in mathematics which is proven from other formulae, or from a given set of axioms, propositions and postulates.

So everything derives from "facts" we expect from experience. The formula 2 + 2 = 4 is a theorem that is proved from axioms, or postulates derived from axioms, that are accepted without demonstration. The axioms are just assumed, but not without collective assent.

We can question the validity of our experiences or of our interpretation of them, or even question whether our experience is all there is to reality, but all we have to go on are what we have experienced. It seems to me that all attempts to explain "miracles" fall into one or the other of these two categories.

DCH (Damn, I'm sounding a lot like Chili)

Chili

Sure, and let me now add that just as finding the hole in tire before you can fix it is axiomatic so must miracles be when their logos finds completion in function by way of perception. This can be much after a line by Empedocles who is reported to have said:
"For all according to what is present does mindfulness grow in men [and] as they change into another nature so too does thinking come to them in other ways."

From this would follow that miracles are beyond our judgement and are best left to the beholder of the same, which then also means that we should not be perplexed by them as seniors.

DCHindley

See? But I digress.

In my humble opinion, Empedocles appears to say, as the old Pennsylvania Dutch proverb goes: "Ve get too soon olt, und too late schmart." Apologies to the unlearned for leaving this pearl of wisdom untranslated.

DCH

Chili

Lucky for me that I am Dutch but maturity has little to do with age and more with bringing the cows home often so they soon know the voice of their master.