Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 03-30-2009, 04:03 AM

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Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

There is no birth story in Mark, now is there...

There's no resurrection story there either. Mark's gospel ends thus; 'He was crucified and buried according to the scriptures'. That's the end of the gospel of Mark which every scholar worth his salt agrees was the first to be written.

Agreed

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All the bullshit come later when these people were trying to interpret what had occurred to a historical man who told them the kingdom of god was at hand. Like starving people, they listened to this guy who promised them this would happen in their lifetimes. It's why he made such an impression. He went further than John The Baptist who preached that the kingdom was to come. Jesus claimed HE was the kingdom and all who followed him would have eternal life.
Most if not all religious movements had a founder. Jesus was the christian founder with a lot of help from Paul of Tarsus.

Here you need to actually assume that the author of Mark was indeed writing some sort of history and not simply writing a story.

If Mark was writing a story, people then tried to interpret what happened to Mark's leading man. Kinda like trying to interpret what happens to the characters in a movie, after the film ends. JC II, the early years, I suppose.

Considering the nature of Mark's story, which possibility best survives the razor? This is the relevant question.

In my view, starting here, one needs evidence that Mark was not simply writing a story.

To my knowledge, there is none.

spamandham · 03-30-2009, 06:55 AM

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Originally Posted by storytime

Of which claims the Jews denied. What was so special about Jerusalem in those days that would have caused non Jews to lay claim to it?

Jerusalem was the epicenter of Judaism, which was a thorn in the side of Rome. Rome had strong motives to undermine Judaism and take Jerusalem away from the Jews. Coincidently*, that's what ended up happening.

*
(it just *must* be coincidence, because it's impossible that Rome invented Christianity for the purpose of undermining the greatest threat to Roman power in the region)

show_no_mercy · 03-30-2009, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

I repeat that the this man was Clark Kent who was made into Superman by mainly Paul and other early christian writers who were clueless as to what this man was all about. He was nothing more than a rabbi.

Can we even say that Paul's Christ was a rabbi? Paul's Christ seems to be a lord, not teacher.

aa5874 · 03-30-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

There is no birth story in Mark, now is there...

There's no resurrection story there either. Mark's gospel ends thus; 'He was crucified and buried according to the scriptures'. That's the end of the gospel of Mark which every scholar worth his salt agrees was the first to be written.

The short-ending of Mark does indeed include a statement that Jesus was resurrected.

Mark 16:6 -

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And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

All the bullshit come later when these people were trying to interpret what had occurred to a historical man who told them the kingdom of god was at hand.

The very first verse of gMark introduces Jesus as a God not a man.

Mark 1:1 -

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The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God...

And as early as the 2nd chapter of Mark, Jesus, as though he was a God, claimed he could forgive the sins of people.

Mark 2. 5-7

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When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

And there is a lot of "bullshit" in gMark itself where Jesus acts like a God or in a way that is not humanly possible.

Jesus walks on water during a storm.

Mark 6.47-51

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47 And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land. 48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them. 49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out: 50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid. 51 And he went up unto them into the ship; and the wind ceased....

More "bull". Mark 9.2-4

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2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Like starving people, they listened to this guy who promised them this would happen in their lifetimes. It's why he made such an impression. He went further than John The Baptist who preached that the kingdom was to come. Jesus claimed HE was the kingdom and all who followed him would have eternal life.

There is no indication that there was any character called Jesus who did anything that that you have proposed in the 1st century during the reign of Tiberius at the time of Pilate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

]Most if not all religious movements had a founder. Jesus was the christian founder with a lot of help from Paul of Tarsus.

Most religious movements do not worship the founder as a God with the abilty to forgive their sins.

In gMark, Jesus was depicted as a God or some kind of spiritual being with the ability to raise himself fom the dead and forgive the sins of the Jews.

Only a God can do that.

bacht · 03-30-2009, 08:30 AM

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Originally Posted by spamandham

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All this are clues that the apologists were defending the indefensible, that their hero died by crucifixion. The death usually used for enemies of the Empire or criminals.

...or was his crucifixion actually a symbolic story for what was happening to the Jewish people, and that's why it draws so heavily on the Jewish scriptures?

Seems as plausible as the traditional story. Why does everyone want to believe that Mark was writing history/biography instead of myth?

gentleexit · 03-30-2009, 03:14 PM

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Originally Posted by dog-on

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Originally Posted by gentleexit

...
The mother of the maccabees was the proto-martyr (not Stephen) and Jesus, what's he? In a line of Jewish thought about the relationship of God and man.

Like the flaming monks, or the willing sacrifices to the volcano god....

So, you know of no stories of the ancient Greeks, where the hero sacrifices himself for the good of his people?

Martyrdom is not fighting for your people against another. A Thermopylae say. Nor is it accepting fate ala Achilles or the other Homeric heroes. Nor is it embodied in the random youngster burned in sacrifice. Such men weren't called "martyrs", though the word is Greek.

Who does the word describe? Someone whose voluntary and obstinate witness of loyalty placates his absent, angry god. That's Jewish and a key ingredient (perhaps the key) for Christianity.

spamandham · 03-30-2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Seems as plausible as the traditional story. Why does everyone want to believe that Mark was writing history/biography instead of myth?

...because everyone who gives a damn is Christian, and non-christian theists don't want their own obvious BS investigated, so there is tacit quid pro quo.

dog-on · 03-31-2009, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gentleexit

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Like the flaming monks, or the willing sacrifices to the volcano god....

So, you know of no stories of the ancient Greeks, where the hero sacrifices himself for the good of his people?

Martyrdom is not fighting for your people against another. A Thermopylae say. Nor is it accepting fate ala Achilles or the other Homeric heroes. Nor is it embodied in the random youngster burned in sacrifice. Such men weren't called "martyrs", though the word is Greek.

Who does the word describe? Someone whose voluntary and obstinate witness of loyalty placates his absent, angry god. That's Jewish and a key ingredient (perhaps the key) for Christianity.

To die for a belief or a principle.

Socrates...

You are simply limiting the meaning to fit your argument. That does not mean that such limiting is relevant to mine...

angelo · 03-31-2009, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

I repeat that the this man was Clark Kent who was made into Superman by mainly Paul and other early christian writers who were clueless as to what this man was all about. He was nothing more than a rabbi.

Can we even say that Paul's Christ was a rabbi? Paul's Christ seems to be a lord, not teacher.

Pauls Jesus was not human but a supernatural god-man. No one has mentioned the possibility of the Q document that may well precede all that was written of this very ordinary preacher. If this document actualy existed, it was the beggining of myth building on pure hearsay.

bacht · 03-31-2009, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Can we even say that Paul's Christ was a rabbi? Paul's Christ seems to be a lord, not teacher.

Pauls Jesus was not human but a supernatural god-man. No one has mentioned the possibility of the Q document that may well precede all that was written of this very ordinary preacher. If this document actualy existed, it was the beggining of myth building on pure hearsay.

Right, and the gospel genre pioneered by Mark seems to be the marriage of Paul's supernatural being with a Q preacher

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