Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 02-15-2013, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

You avoid too much spin. What were the ger toshavim? ha'hassid umot ha-olam? Would not Philo have known?

Here is my last sentence again (italics added):

When he describes these therapeutae as observing Jewish traditions to his Jewish audience, without indicating that they are not Jewish, it is exceptionally hard to conceive in such a context that he is not talking specifically about Jews.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

When we of my congregation talk of THE Sabbath, we talk of no other day than that which is observed by all observant Jews. We do not advocate or keep the 'christian' traditions, but the LAWS and THE Sabbaths of the Jewish religion.
Most members in fact quite a bit more strictly than most who are actually born 'Jewish' do.

You persist in wasting your time on irrelevances to this discourse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I do not believe in Paul, or in any Jezuz of Nazareth, (or by any other variation or pronunciation of that name) the virgin birth, the 'crucification of god', or just about any of the claims of the christian form of religion.

This is fascinating, Sheshbazzar. You probably don't believe in the efficacy of holy water, or the wafer turning into the body of christ, or the trinity, or other similar factoids that have nothing to do with what you are supposed to be talking about. Can you try to stick to the conversation topic that you yourself started?

Sheshbazzar · 02-15-2013, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

You avoid too much spin. What were the ger toshavim? ha'hassid umot ha-olam? Would not Philo have known?

Here is my last sentence again (italics added):

When he describes these therapeutae as observing Jewish traditions to his Jewish audience, without indicating that they are not Jewish, it is exceptionally hard to conceive in such a context that he is not talking specifically about Jews.

Philo described the theraputae as observing Jewish traditions...

That 'exceptionally hard to conceive' or to comprehend the matter is only a lack of comprehension on your part.

There is nothing in Philo's writing that says or even implies his audience was -exclusively- 'Jewish'.

You are reading your personal biases and predjudices into the text of 'VC'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

When we of my congregation talk of THE Sabbath, we talk of no other day than that which is observed by all observant Jews. We do not advocate or keep the 'christian' traditions, but the LAWS and THE Sabbaths of the Jewish religion.
Most members in fact quite a bit more strictly than most who are actually born 'Jewish' do.

You persist in wasting your time on irrelevances to this discourse.

And you persist in ignoring all of the hundreds of passages of The Scriptures that invite and accept GENTILES to worship and to praise the Elohim of Israel along with His people Israel.
GENTILE peoples -whom according to the flesh were not Israel, and were not 'Jewish', and were not directed by Scripture to ever become 'Jewish'.

As the Scriptural goal was, and is, the 'ingathering' of ALL Gentiles peoples through Israel, the 'Jews', into a collective devotion to ONE Adonai, יהוה

NOT that these gathered Gentiles peoples, joined to His people Israel (The 'Jews') should ever need themselves to become 'Jews' or 'Jewish' to be among those called His people.

Philo knowing these Scriptures would have included these devout LAW keeping, SABBATH observing GENTILE non-Jewish people among the people he called 'thereaputae', understanding that were not 'Jews', that is why he speaks of 'theraputae'.
(which is a Gentile inclusive term, rather than using 'Jews' which would have been Gentile exclusionary)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I do not believe in Paul, or in any Jezuz of Nazareth, (or by any other variation or pronunciation of that name) the virgin birth, the 'crucification of god', or just about any of the claims of the christian form of religion.

This is fascinating, Sheshbazzar. You probably don't believe in the efficacy of holy water, or the wafer turning into the body of christ, or the trinity, or other similar factoids that have nothing to do with what you are supposed to be talking about.
Can you try to stick to the conversation topic that you yourself started?

You are the one here repeatedly attempting to deflect from the point of the OP;

GENTILES that worship The Holy One of Israel, that uphold the Torah, that Keep the SABBATH with His people Israel, are accepted by The Elohim of Israel as being children of Abraham, -along with those who are Israel -'Jews'- by fact of birth.

Philo would have known and understood this;

Quote:

'The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself;

Quote:

"And you shall rejoice in your feast, you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant and the Levite, the stranger and the fatherless and the widow, who are within your gates."

Quote:

Blessed is the person who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling THE SABBATH, And keeps his hand from doing any evil.

Neither let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to יהוה Speak, saying; יהוה has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree."

For thus says יהוה; "To the eunuchs who keep My SABBATHS, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My Covenant,
Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting Name That shall not be cut off.

Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to יהוה, to serve Him,
And to love THE NAME יהוה, to be His servants— EVERYONE who keeps from defiling THE SABBATH, And holds fast My Covenant—
Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their olah and their zebach will be accepted on My altar;

For My house shall be called a house of prayer for ALL peoples. (-not just 'Jews')

Adonai יהוה, Who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says; "Yet I will gather to him OTHERS besides those who are gathered to him."

('OTHERS' = the 'Gentiles', 'to him'= Israel, __not any 'jebus')

Even the Lubavitcher Rebbe understood and taught this.

You are the one here reading your christer crap ideas and prejudices into every sentence.

semiopen · 02-15-2013, 08:59 AM

Artapanus_of_Alexandria made an appearance in the Jannes and Jambros thread.

The wiki describes him as of Jewish origin, even though he was sort of polytheistic, etc. I think his views on the Sabbath are unclear.

Maimonides’and the Definition of a Jew

Quote:

While fully cognizant of halakhah, Maimonides adopted the radical notion that while a person’s maternal class determined his Israelite status, belief in the principles of Jewish faith determined his theological status. For Maimonides, a Jew born of a Jewish mother is a potential Jew.

Contrary to accepted views, Maimonides did not view someone as being born into the status of being a Jew. Israelite relates to the halakhic definition; Jew is theological. The culmination of Maimonides’ view was his articulation of the Thirteen Principles of Faith now commonly accepted as the fundamentals principles of Jewish faith.

The thing is that there are problems with the 13 Principles:

Maimonides: The 13 Principles and the Resurrection of the Dead

Quote:

1.Belief in the existence of the Creator, be He Blessed, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.
2.The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.
3.The belief in G-d's noncorporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.
4.The belief in G-d's eternity.
5.The imperative to worship Him exclusively and no foreign false gods.
6.The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy.
7.The belief that the prophecy of Moses our teacher has priority.
8.The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9.The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
10.The belief in divine omniscience and providence.
11.The belief in divine reward and retribution.
12.The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.
13.The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

I sort of agree with 5, at least the last part. Once you get to say 12 and 13, it's hard to imagine a sane person agreeing - not that there is a lack of people that will argue that those are true and important.

Guest46854 · 02-15-2013, 09:17 AM

What is Jewish?

A matter of opinion.

Toto · 02-15-2013, 09:18 AM

Some off topic posts have been split off here.

Posts such as aa's which merely repeat points from the previous closed thread will be considered off topic.

Chili · 02-15-2013, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Artapanus_of_Alexandria made an appearance in the Jannes and Jambros thread.

The wiki describes him as of Jewish origin, even though he was sort of polytheistic, etc. I think his views on the Sabbath are unclear.

Maimonides’and the Definition of a Jew

Quote:

While fully cognizant of halakhah, Maimonides adopted the radical notion that while a person’s maternal class determined his Israelite status, belief in the principles of Jewish faith determined his theological status. For Maimonides, a Jew born of a Jewish mother is a potential Jew.

Contrary to accepted views, Maimonides did not view someone as being born into the status of being a Jew. Israelite relates to the halakhic definition; Jew is theological. The culmination of Maimonides’ view was his articulation of the Thirteen Principles of Faith now commonly accepted as the fundamentals principles of Jewish faith.

The thing is that there are problems with the 13 Principles:

Maimonides: The 13 Principles and the Resurrection of the Dead

Quote:

1.Belief in the existence of the Creator, be He Blessed, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.
2.The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.
3.The belief in G-d's noncorporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.
4.The belief in G-d's eternity.
5.The imperative to worship Him exclusively and no foreign false gods.
6.The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy.
7.The belief that the prophecy of Moses our teacher has priority.
8.The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.
9.The belief in the immutability of the Torah.
10.The belief in divine omniscience and providence.
11.The belief in divine reward and retribution.
12.The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.
13.The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

I sort of agree with 5, at least the last part. Once you get to say 12 and 13, it's hard to imagine a sane person agreeing - not that there is a lack of people that will argue that those are true and important.

Nice, and I would only remove 7 and leave the other 12.

Sheshbazzar · 02-15-2013, 10:25 AM

Supposedly my thread. I invite the input from my friend Chili, and aa5874, as well as from those who would be my foes.
Least these arguments be deprived of their context.

I gladly tolerate the sparrows that shit.

The birds that shit much are also the birds that sing, drop seeds, fertilize, and pollinate.

If the sparrows should chance betimes to shit in my eye, I'll remember Tobiah.

Chili · 02-15-2013, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Supposedly my thread. I invite the input from my friend Chili, and aa5874, as well as from those who would be my foes.
Least these arguments be deprived of their context.

Since I am always in trouble anyway, I dare say that to be a Jew is a priviledge and a gift of God that so makes deprivation known as look-alike to make the opposites known that cannot be conceived to exist without the other.

Leave it to Plato to always know best.

outhouse · 02-15-2013, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

My guess is that 'Jew' represented originally an inferior understanding of monotheistism - i.e. the mere 'praise' or confession of one God. .

Yes to a point. The adherance of laws from one Proselyte to another depended on geographic location more then anything else.

Take Galilee, jews there may not have been so open and made a distinction between the two.

In Jerusalem, there may not have been anything but open arms due to the diversity.

But there is a sentance in the Jewsih encyclopedia under Proselyte, that states some just had to be loyal to the one god.

stephan huller · 02-15-2013, 11:11 AM

Jew, Jewish and Judaism are unfortunate terms because they have come to mean 'Israelite.' Clearly not the original intention of the author of the Pentateuch as nothing takes place in Judea, no mention of Jerusalem. Joseph (= Samaria) not Judah (= Judea) is the focus of the closing story of Genesis.

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02-15-2013, 09:17 AM	#24
Guest46854 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: California Posts: 99	What is Jewish? A matter of opinion.

02-15-2013, 09:18 AM	#25
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Some off topic posts have been split off here. Posts such as aa's which merely repeat points from the previous closed thread will be considered off topic.

02-15-2013, 10:25 AM	#27
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Supposedly my thread. I invite the input from my friend Chili, and aa5874, as well as from those who would be my foes. Least these arguments be deprived of their context. I gladly tolerate the sparrows that shit. The birds that shit much are also the birds that sing, drop seeds, fertilize, and pollinate. If the sparrows should chance betimes to shit in my eye, I'll remember Tobiah.

02-15-2013, 11:11 AM	#30
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Jew, Jewish and Judaism are unfortunate terms because they have come to mean 'Israelite.' Clearly not the original intention of the author of the Pentateuch as nothing takes place in Judea, no mention of Jerusalem. Joseph (= Samaria) not Judah (= Judea) is the focus of the closing story of Genesis.

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