Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amedeo · 06-15-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojuang

The role of this ark seems to be changing all over!from its making to its destruction the old testament seems to gloss over without actually saying what it was for.Some brains out there help because am meeting theists soon and it shall be the point of discussion.

When you speak with these "theists," ask them who made the ark and when the ten commandments were placed in it:

Deuteronomy 10 claims that Moses made the ark at the same time that he carved two tablets for the replacement set of commandments:

By contrast, Exodus 35 claims that after Moses descended with the second set of commandments, he commissioned "all who are skillful" to make various cultic objects, including the ark:

As the story continues, we learn that a man named Bezalel made the ark:

Now look at chapter 40. We aren't told how much time has now elapsed, but the tabernacle and its contents, the construction of which hadn't even begun until after Moses received the ten commandments, have now been built:

The contradictions are obvious, and claiming that Moses "made" the ark via Bezalel--as a contractor "builds" a house--won't work, because the obvious intent of Deuteronomy is that Moses made both the tablets and ark, the latter's purpose to serve as a receptacle for the former, and there is no allowance for the amount of time required to build the tabernacle and its contents to intervene between the receipt of the commandments and their placement in the ark. Don't make the mistake of conflating the elaborate, gold-laden ark of Exodus with Deuteronomy's nondescript, utilitarian "ark of wood."

On another note, 2 Maccabees 2 contains an interesting tradition:

Quote:

One finds in the records that the prophet Jeremiah ordered those who were being deported to take some of the fire, as has been mentioned, 2and that the prophet, after giving them the law, instructed those who were being deported not to forget the commandments of the Lord, or to be led astray in their thoughts on seeing the gold and silver statues and their adornment. 3And with other similar words he exhorted them that the law should not depart from their hearts.
4 It was also in the same document that the prophet, having received an oracle, ordered that the tent and the ark should follow with him, and that he went out to the mountain where Moses had gone up and had seen the inheritance of God. 5 Jeremiah came and found a cave-dwelling, and he brought there the tent and the ark and the altar of incense; then he sealed up the entrance. 6 Some of those who followed him came up intending to mark the way, but could not find it. 7 When Jeremiah learned of it, he rebuked them and declared: "The place shall remain unknown until God gathers his people together again and shows his mercy. 8Then the Lord will disclose these things, and the glory of the Lord and the cloud will appear, as they were shown in the case of Moses, and as Solomon asked that the place should be specially consecrated."

Thus here is one answer to the question of what happened to the ark: it was "sealed up" until the appropriate time.

Jeremiah pretends to know the will of God... and he does, since his god is nothing but an emotive idea in the brain of speakers [prophets]. So, we can look at his foretelling of the future: The ark will remain sealed until the People is reunited.

But the kingdom and Judah and the Kingdom of Israel were never re-united, as Judea dissolved itself an Israel was conquered. So, it is physically impossible to unite what no longer exists. Jeremiah implicitly foretold that there would be a re-unification. That was a false phrophesy. Therefore, there is no truth in the proposition that the ark is sealed and will so remain until the fulfilment of time. (If if the ark was truly sealed, it it possible that it has been found, since there is no enforced/necessitating divine mandate that it must remain sealed.) The Bible named people, special objects, and places may be real [like the Tigris and the Euphrates which part of the definition of the Eden territory], but their told biographies (interpretations and anecdotal concoctions) have no historical value. Jeremiah may have spoken about a real object, but what he said about it is his own opinion and wish as to what is to happen... like intensely wanting rain and forecasting it.

(Of course, one who believes that the Bible is a truthful story believes that the prophesies will be verified, even when verification is precluded by historical events. But what a person believes is irrelevant to the status of the ark or of anything else in the world.
People who believe in Jesus's prediction of the end of the world believe it will happen, even although HIS specific prediction has already been refuted.)

Chili · 06-15-2007, 08:19 PM

In the Loretta litany Mary is the Ark of the Covenant and the Gate to Heaven. I like it that way because she is so very local and present.

mojuang · 06-16-2007, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

;in Kings 8:8. This is Solomon's temple, and according to Solomon never built a temple.

Gerard Stafleu

He never built a temple? Then where was he taking all the taxes to?this is news to me!please shed some light!:devil1:

mojuang · 06-16-2007, 05:02 AM

Thank you Amadeo yours was the coolest.

Amedeo · 06-16-2007, 07:44 PM

The Church of St. Mary of Sion [which replicated the church built in Jerusalem right after the Crusaders' conquest] claims to have the Ark of the Covenant, which is taken around the townof Axum every year, covered, in procession. For some strange reason, the high priest in the state of Israel never made a diplomatic visit to see it, but there are rumors that, some years ago [1980s?], some Israelis tried to break in the place where it is safely kept. They did not succeed.
It think it is a copy of the Ark which the Templars took and hid in a building, a fort, built just for it. (The extant building has the insignia of the Templars, which the British investigator, Hamilton failed to recognize, wherefore he stopped going any farther in his quest for the Ark.) Details:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...48#post4414848

I wish some treasure hunters break in under the Calvary in the cemetary of Rennes-le-Chateau where the ark is likely to be resting in peace. (Many people are afraid to even talk about it.)

Joan of Bark · 06-16-2007, 11:02 PM

Isn't it in a warehouse somewhere with thousands of other boxed-up items?

Seriously though, I like John Kesler's comments and I'm going to look at what Richard L. Friedman says about this in his Commentary on the Torah (or via: amazon.co.uk).

John Kesler · 06-17-2007, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Seriously though, I like John Kesler's comments and I'm going to look at what Richard L. Friedman says about this in his Commentary on the Torah.

Friedman comments on Deuteronomy 10:1 (page 598 of my paperback edition), original emphasis:

Quote:

10:1. you shall make an ark of wood. It says "you shall make," but in Exodus it was Bezalel, not Moses, who made the ark. Rashi and Ramban and others therefore say that there must have been two arks. In current scholarship, the apparent contradiction would generally be taken to be a result of the fact that this text in Deuteronomy and the text in Exodus were written by two different authors. But, even without raising such solutions that are arrived at through critical approaches, we can understand Moses' words in Deuteronomy to be a brief account of what happened at Sinai, and so he speaks of himself as making the ark when he means that he directed Bezalel to do it. Likewise he speaks of the ark as if it were finished and ready when he came down from the mountain when he knows that actually some time passed before the ark was made...

Keep in mind that in this commentary, Friedman attempts to understand the texts as they now exist in the Torah. In other words, Friedman harmonizes the Torah. In his more text-critical work, The Bible With Sources Revealed (or via: amazon.co.uk), Friedman ascribes Exodus 34:29 through the end of the book to the "P" author, and of course the Deuteronomy passage comes from "D." I think the fact that two imminent rabbis "and others" concluded that there must have been two different arks is an unstated admission of contradiction.

mojuang · 06-18-2007, 03:54 AM

John kesler: Friedman comments on Deuteronomy 10:1 (page 598 of my paperback edition), :

Is this your book-as in you wrote it? please tell me where i can get it John kesler av read many of your contributions in this forum and i find them very enlightening.

John Kesler · 06-18-2007, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojuang

Is this your book-as in you wrote it? please tell me where i can get it

It's written by R.E. Friedman. When I said "my paperback edition," I just meant that the page number I referenced is in the paperback edition that I own, not that I wrote the book. You can get a used copy of the book here (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojuang

John kesler av read many of your contributions in this forum and i find them very enlightening.

Thanks.

mojuang · 06-19-2007, 05:46 AM

thanks for the site.

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06-15-2007, 08:19 PM	#12
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	In the Loretta litany Mary is the Ark of the Covenant and the Gate to Heaven. I like it that way because she is so very local and present.

06-16-2007, 05:02 AM	#14
mojuang Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: mombasa,Kenya Posts: 52	Thank you Amadeo yours was the coolest.

06-16-2007, 07:44 PM	#15
Amedeo Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: US Citizen (edited) Posts: 1,948	The Church of St. Mary of Sion [which replicated the church built in Jerusalem right after the Crusaders' conquest] claims to have the Ark of the Covenant, which is taken around the townof Axum every year, covered, in procession. For some strange reason, the high priest in the state of Israel never made a diplomatic visit to see it, but there are rumors that, some years ago [1980s?], some Israelis tried to break in the place where it is safely kept. They did not succeed. It think it is a copy of the Ark which the Templars took and hid in a building, a fort, built just for it. (The extant building has the insignia of the Templars, which the British investigator, Hamilton failed to recognize, wherefore he stopped going any farther in his quest for the Ark.) Details: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...48#post4414848 I wish some treasure hunters break in under the Calvary in the cemetary of Rennes-le-Chateau where the ark is likely to be resting in peace. (Many people are afraid to even talk about it.)

06-16-2007, 11:02 PM	#16
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Isn't it in a warehouse somewhere with thousands of other boxed-up items? Seriously though, I like John Kesler's comments and I'm going to look at what Richard L. Friedman says about this in his Commentary on the Torah (or via: amazon.co.uk).

06-18-2007, 03:54 AM	#18
mojuang Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: mombasa,Kenya Posts: 52	John kesler: Friedman comments on Deuteronomy 10:1 (page 598 of my paperback edition), : Is this your book-as in you wrote it? please tell me where i can get it John kesler av read many of your contributions in this forum and i find them very enlightening.

06-19-2007, 05:46 AM	#20
mojuang Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: mombasa,Kenya Posts: 52	thanks for the site.

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