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Old 09-18-2011, 12:57 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Christopher Price wrote an interesting article on Bedes site http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm that provides a number of evidences for the partial interpolation theory for the TF ...
I have made comment about this article here

Quote:

"A Thoroughly Biased Review of the Testimonium Flavianum".


Not only does this author fail to mention the earlier history of
scholarship which has censured the TF as a gross forgery, it fails
to present a balance sheet of opinion by being entirely dismissive
of the entire sector of scholarly consensus which disagrees with
its nominated scholarly authority. Contemporary apologetics.

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Originally Posted by Toto View Post
I doubt that he went to any trouble to mimic Josephus. He naturally picked some some Josephan language from reading him. But he was guided by either the "holy spirit" or politics,
And/or imperial gold, like everyone else. There was nothing like the promise of gold solidi to inspire the production of great literary works. Momigliano goes so far as to say that Eusebius was possibly a man of Jewish descent.

Quote:
...and did not contemplate a literary or forgery expert examining his work. It was a later 20th century scholar who separated the text into the Josephan and non-Josephan parts.
Academic censure of the TF as a "rank forgery" started well over two centuries ago. But it is the habit of the apologists to seek MODERN OPINION and to sweep prior opinion under the carpet. After all, what would Edward Gibbon know about ancient history?

1762: Bishop Warburton of Gloucester -"a rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too",
1767: Dr. Nathaniel Lardner quotes Bishop Warburtonof Gloucester.
1788: Edward Gibbon "may furnish an example of no vulgar forgery". D&F V2,Ch16,Pt2,FN [36]
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Old 09-18-2011, 06:25 AM   #22
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Just an idea here - did Eusebius look to gLuke for 'support' for his TF interpolation into Antiquities. ie has gLuke already referenced the wonder-doer account, that is now preserved in Slavonic Josephus - and Eusebius takes this as a sanction of his own use of that earlier storyline - and decides to update Antiquities? (albeit dropping gLuke's reference to the messianic hopes re the wonder-doer found in Slavonic Josephus).

I've updated the chart to reflect the gLuke reference.


Slavonic Josephus Luke ch. 24 Eusebius Antiquities
At that time also a man came forward,—if even it is fitting to call him a man [simply]. His nature as well as his form were a man's; but his showing forth was more than [that] of a man. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, And there lived at that time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it be proper to call him a man. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man;.
His works, that is to say, were godly, and he wrought wonder-deeds amazing and full of power. Therefore it is not possible for me to call him a man [simply]. But again, looking at the existence he shared with all, I would also not call him an angel...And many from the folk followed him and received his teachings. powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. For he was a doer of wonderful works, and a teacher of such men as receive the truth in gladness.... And he attached to himself many of the Jews, and many also of the Greeks. He was the Christ. for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. .......He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ.
The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death. And he, after he had taken [the money], gave them consent that they should themselves carry out their purpose. And they took him and crucified him according to the ancestral law. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; When Pilate, on the accusation of our principal men, condemned him to the cross.... Moreover, the race of Christians, named after him, continues down to the present day. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross.... And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
But when they saw his power, that he accomplished everything that he would by word, they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us. but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel  
The Second Mention of the Wonder-doer - - -
Again Claudius sent his authorities to those states—Cuspius Fadus and Tiberius Alexander.................many had been discovered as servants of the previously described wonder-doer; and as they spake to the people about their teacher,—that he is living, although he is dead, and that he will free you from your servitude,—many from the folk gave ear to the above-named and took upon themselves their precept... And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.... They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?” They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen. ..those who had loved him in the beginning did not cease loving him......For he appeared unto them again alive on the third day, the divine prophets having told these and countless other wonderful things concerning him. ...those that loved him at the first did not forsake him;.... for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.
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Old 09-18-2011, 07:45 AM   #23
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Just an idea here - did Eusebius look to gLuke for 'support' for his TF interpolation into Antiquities. ie has gLuke already referenced the wonder-doer account, that is now preserved in Slavonic Josephus - and Eusebius takes this as a sanction of his own use of that earlier storyline - and decides to update Antiquities? (albeit dropping gLuke's reference to the messianic hopes re the wonder-doer found in Slavonic Josephus)....
Do you really understand the FAR-REACHING implications of the FORGERIES in Josephus?

Eusebius may not have even written "Church History" or all of it.

Please tell me who originally wrote "Slavonic Josephus" and if it contains any interpolations?
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Old 09-18-2011, 07:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by maryhelena View Post
Just an idea here - did Eusebius look to gLuke for 'support' for his TF interpolation into Antiquities. ie has gLuke already referenced the wonder-doer account, that is now preserved in Slavonic Josephus - and Eusebius takes this as a sanction of his own use of that earlier storyline - and decides to update Antiquities? (albeit dropping gLuke's reference to the messianic hopes re the wonder-doer found in Slavonic Josephus)....
Do you really understand the FAR-REACHING implications of the FORGERIES in Josephus?

Eusebius may not have even written "Church History" or all of it.

Please tell me who originally wrote "Slavonic Josephus" and if it contains any interpolations?
The wonder-doer story that is contained within Slavonic Josephus? Don't know who wrote it - and I don't know who wrote gJohn, gMark, gMatthew and gLuke either.....:huh:
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Old 09-18-2011, 08:40 AM   #25
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I don't think that the interpolator (probably Eusebius) was trying very hard to convince anyone that the interpolation was genuine - because he didn't have to.
Oh really? How do you know this? Wasn't he commissioned to do his work? In any case, this doesn't even try to address the question of why in the world he would go to so much trouble to mimic Josephus (the 'clever' part)?
I doubt that he went to any trouble to mimic Josephus. He naturally picked some some Josephan language from reading him.
Yes, he naturally would have picked up some Josephan language from reading him. I guess it is a question of how much? Had he 'picked up' a few words, and couple of phrases, I would agree. But it isn't just a few:

Price:
Quote:
The following phrases are characteristic of Josephus:

(i) At this time there appeared;

(ii) a wise man;

(iii) startling deeds;

(iv) receive the truth with pleasure;

(v) leading men;

(vi) among us;

(vii) those who had loved him; and,

(viii) the tribe of.

The following phrases are obvious Christian glosses:

(i) if it be lawful to call him a man, and

(ii) He was the Christ. (However, the latter phrase was likely "he was thought to be the Christ" or some rough equivalent).

Then there is a passage that contains obvious Christian sentiment and characteristic Josephan language:

(i) for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.

In conclusion, a substantial amount of the TF is characteristically Josephus and only a few phrases are obviously Christian.
Moreover, many of the phrases that are characteristically Josephan are absent from the New Testament and other early Christian literature (such as "wise man" and "leading men"), and/or are phrases or terms that Christians would likely have avoided using (such as "startling deeds," and "received the truth with pleasure"). Add in a phrase that any Christian scribe would have known was erroneous ("he gained a following among many Jews and among many of Gentile origin") and a compelling case exists that the core of the TF is authentic. Cementing the case is that the TF actually is coherent and flows better without the obvious Christian glosses.

Quote:
But he was guided by either the "holy spirit" or politics, and did not contemplate a literary or forgery expert examining his work. It was a later 20th century scholar who separated the text into the Josephan and non-Josephan parts.
Neither of these seem to appreciate the evidence.

Quote:
There is an alleged Prayer Book of George Washington. It doesn't read like Washington's words. Whoever wrote it did not seem to care, and the people who claim that Washington wrote it do not seem to care, although the experts are not persuaded.
prayer book = alleged authentic TF
non-Washington phrases = Christian phrases in TF
writer didn't care if had non Wash phrases = Eusebius didn't care if had non Josephan phrases
people didn't care = Christians don't care if has Christian phrases
experts not persuaded = experts not persuaded because has Christian phrases

You seem to using your vast knowledge in order to find an example that doesn't really apply here: None of this addresses the many Josephan phrases, nor the manuscript evidence of TF's that exclude the Christian phrase. Skepticism is not the same as rationalism.



Here http://christiancadre.org/member_con..._josephus.htmlis Price's response to Olson's argument regarding Jesus himself 'winning over many Greeks':

Quote:
C. Winning Over Jews and Gentiles

Next, Olson claims that Eusebius invented the Testimonium so that he could show that Jesus won over many followers:

[A]nd he won over many of the Jewish and even many of the Greek [nation]." It is sometimes argued that a Christian author would have known that Jesus did not attract many gentile followers during his ministry, but this is contradicted by Eusebius' testimony. Elsewhere he reports of Jesus that "by teaching and miracles He revealed the powers of His Godhead to all equally whether Greeks or Jews" (D.E. 400). The paired opposition of Jews and Greeks is especially common in the first two books of the Demonstratio, where Eusebius claims, "Christianity is neither a form of Hellenism nor a form of Judaism" (D.E. 11). It is, in fact, the re-establishment of the religion of the patriarchs, who worshiped the one God but did not have the restrictions of the Mosaic law, and thus was "that third form of religion midway between Judaism and Hellenism" (D.E.: Ferrar 8, Migne 25a). The MEN. DE construction used in the Testimonium situates the "nation" founded by Jesus nicely between the two other religions.

Olson has hit upon the one use that Eusebius makes of the Testimonium in Proof of the Gospel. However, Eusebius' use of this part of the argument is -- at best -- awkward. The Testimonium clearly states that Jesus amassed many Greek and Jewish followers during his ministry, whereas Eusebius knows that is not the case. As Professor Robert Van Voorst puts it:

Anyone remotely familiar with the Gospel tradition knows that Jesus himself did not win over 'many Greeks' to his movement, even though "Greeks" here means Gentiles. While Jesus had a certain appeal to Gentiles, he certainly did not win them over in the same proportion as Jews, as the 'both ... and' construction and the repeated "many" suggest. This statement naively reads back the situation of Christianity at the end of the first century, when Christianity had many adherents from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds. Once again, a Christian copyist probably would not make such a mistake.

Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the Gospels, page 90.

The Gospels are clear that Jesus' ministry was to the Jews, and it was his followers that were charged with taking the Gospel to the Greeks. And contrary to Olson’s characterization, Eusebius know this well. In fact, Eusebius relies on the Acts of the Apostles to show that it was Jesus' followers who actually attracted Greeks to Christianity. As Paget asks, "if Eusebius was the forger of the TF why would he have chosen not to emphasize those parts of the passage which Olson highlights as central to his concerns, emphasizing instead a part of the TF which appeared historically problematic?" Paget, op. cit., page 562

I would like to find the quote D.E. 400 that Olson relies on to see the context in which it is written. It may well be that he is referring not to Jesus' earthly ministry there at all, but the concept of ALL people being influenced by the teachings and belief in the miracles of Jesus, for their salvation.


And, here is Price's summary of Olson's overall theory of whole cloth Eusebian interpolation of the TF

Quote:
An examination of three types of evidence reveals that Olson's theory is unpersuasive. First, the internal evidence reveals distinctly, and sometimes uniquely, Josephan language in parts of the TF. Olson's attempt to point to uniquely Eusebian language is unavailing. Two of the phrases are arguably Josephan. Second, Olson completely ignores the probable existence of Antiquities manuscripts independent of Eusebius which also contain the TF. The existence of such manuscripts is fatal to this theory. Third, Olson's more important argument about Eusebius' apologetic purpose is entirely unconvincing. Simply put, Eusebius never uses the TF as Olson's theory predicts. In sum, Olson has failed to offer any serious reason to believe that Eusebius interpolated the TF.
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Old 09-18-2011, 08:48 AM   #26
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The following phrases are characteristic of Josephus:

(i) At this time there appeared;

(ii) a wise man;

(iii) startling deeds;

(iv) receive the truth with pleasure;

(v) leading men;

(vi) among us;

(vii) those who had loved him; and,

(viii) the tribe of.
These are hardly so unique to Josephus that they would count as "evidence." And "tribe of Christians" is a typical Eusebian phrase.

Price is not going to be convinced because he doesn't like the results.

And this has to be a joke: "Second, Olson completely ignores the probable existence of Antiquities manuscripts independent of Eusebius which also contain the TF."
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Old 09-18-2011, 08:59 AM   #27
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Quote:
The following phrases are characteristic of Josephus:

(i) At this time there appeared;

(ii) a wise man;

(iii) startling deeds;

(iv) receive the truth with pleasure;

(v) leading men;

(vi) among us;

(vii) those who had loved him; and,

(viii) the tribe of.
These are hardly so unique to Josephus that they would count as "evidence." And "tribe of Christians" is a typical Eusebian phrase.
Those arguments are fine for those that like knee jerk responses, but they don't show a knowledge of the issues Price has brought to the topic. Did you read his article?

Quote:
a. Now there was about this time, Jesus

The digression and introductory phrase are typical of Josephus. As noted by Steve Mason, "[t]he opening phrase 'about this time' is characteristic of his language in this part of Antiquities, where he is weaving together distinct episodes into a coherent narrative (cf. Ant. 17.19; 18.39, 65, 80; 19.278)." (Mason, Josephus and the New Testament, page 171). Additionally, the use of the simple name "Jesus" favours Josephan authorship. A Christian would be more likely to use the term "Jesus Christ" or "Christ Jesus. In all of Ignatius' seven authentic letters he refers to "Jesus Christ" 112 times, "Christ Jesus" 12 times, "Christ" 4 times, and "Jesus" only 3 times (Robert Grant, The Apostolic Fathers, Vol. 4, page 7). Another example is Polycarp. In his letter he ten times refers to "Jesus Christ" and never once to "Jesus." Though certainly not determinative, this is suggestive and more consistent with authorship by Josephus than a Christian interpolator.

b. A wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man,

Although the phrase "wise man" sounds positive, it almost certainly is not a Christian addition. That it is followed by the obvious interpolation "if it be lawful to call him a man" indicates that the interpolator found the description of Jesus as a "wise man" to be woefully inadequate. So, he remedies this insufficient estimate of Jesus by clarifying that there is good reason to doubt he was just a man. "A Christian scribe would not deny that Jesus was a wise man, but would feel that label insufficient for one who has believed to be God as well as man." (Meier, op. cit., page 60). Mason adds: "As it stands, the reticence to call Jesus a man seems like a rejoinder to the previous, already flattering statement that he was a wise man. It seems more like a qualification of an existing statement than part of a free creation." (Mason, op. cit., page 171; See also France, op. cit., page 30: "Thus the clause 'if indeed one should call him a man' makes good sense as a Christian response to Josephus' description of Jesus as (merely) a 'wise man', but is hardly the sort of language a Christian would have used if writing from scratch.").

Furthermore, the phrase "wise man" is characteristically Josephan. And its context and how Josephus uses it elsewhere are especially matched to its use in the TF:

He uses the designation “wise man” sparingly, but as a term of considerable praise. King Solomon was such a wise man (Ant. 8.53), and so was Daniel (10.237). Interestingly, both men had what we might call occult powers—abilities to perform cures and interpret dreams—of the sort that Jesus is credited with in the testimonium.

(Mason, op. cit., page 171).

Leading Jewish scholar Geza Vermes agrees that there is a connection between the use of the term for Daniel and Solomon and the TF's description of Jesus:

Of these, Solomon and Daniel are the most obvious parallels to Jesus qua wise men. Both were celebrated as masters of wisdom. Hence it is not surprising to find the epithet 'teacher' follows closely the phrases under consideration in the Testimonium.

(Geza Vermes, The Jesus Notice of Josephus Re-Examined, Journal of Jewish Studies, Spring 1987, page 3).

Finally, an often overlooked argument about the use of "wise man" is that it would have a "pejorative connotation" to Christians. In 1 Corinthians 1:24, 30, the wisdom of man is put in a very negative light. In Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21, "the wise" are compared unfavourably to "babes." Indeed, such a term is not used by Christians in their early literature to describe Jesus. Vermes, op. cit., page 5. This adds yet more weight to the argument for partial authenticity. As Vermes concludes, "no stylistic or historical argument" can be "marshalled against the authenticity" of this phrase. (Ibid).

c. for he was a doer of wonderful works,

The term for "doer" here has been claimed not to be Josephan. But Professor Meier is aware of this argument and offers an explanation:

[I]t is used elsewhere in Josephus only in the sense of "poet"; but Josephus . . . has a fondness for resolving a simple verb into two words: a noun expressing the agent and the auxiliary verb (e.g., krites einai for the simple krinein). Moreover, Josephus uses such cognates as poieteos, 'that which is to be done," poiesis, "doing, causing" (as well as "poetry, poem"), and poietikos, 'that which causes something" (as well as "poetic").

(Meier, op. cit., page 81).

Furthermore, it is not all that unusual for ancient Greek authors to use occasionally a word in an unusual way. The undisputed epistles of Paul have their share not only of hapex legomena but also of Pauline words and phrases that Paul uses in a given passage with an unusual meaning or construction. Especially since Josephus is dealing in the Testimonium with peculiar material, drawn perhaps from a special source, we need not be surprised if his usage differs slightly at a few points.

(Meier, op. cit., page 83 (emphasis added)).

On balance therefore, there is nothing about this term that counts against authenticity.

One the other hand, Mason confirms that the term "startling/incredible deeds" (paradoxa) is Josephan: "Josephus often speaks of “marvels” and “incredible” things in the same breath, as the testimonium does. He even uses the phrase rendered “incredible deeds” in two other places, once of the prophet Elisha (Ant. 9.182; cf. 12.63)." (Mason, op. cit., page 171). Yet this term is nowhere used in the New Testament to describe Jesus' miracles. Nor is it used in early Christian literature prior to its citation by Eusebius.

The reason Christians generally avoided this term is that it could just as easily be interpreted in a neutral or even negative way, such as "controversial deeds." Professor Van Voorst notes that the phrase "is ambiguous; it can also be translated 'startling/controversial deeds.'" (Jesus Outside the New Testament, page 78). Professor Vermes notes that "paradoxa" is not an unambiguous reference to a Godly miracle. In fact, "students of Josephus seem to agree that the word best expressing his notion of 'miracle' is" a different Greek term that Vermes translates "sign." This is especially true when the issue concerns an extraordinary deed achieved by a man of God (Vermes, op. cit., page 7). Josephus does not use the unambiguous term, but uses "paradoxa." According to Vermes, "paradoxa" is simply too neutral standing alone to be a positive attestation. Though Josephus uses this term for Moses and Elisha, he goes out of his way to explain that the deeds described there were from God.

The Jesus notice, though verbally closely related to the Elisha passage, lacks a positive evaluation by Josephus. His is a fairly sympathetic but ultimately detached description: he reports traditions concerning Jesus, but he is personally not committed to them.

(Vermes, op. cit., page 8).

Such a neutral reference would be expected from Josephus, but not from any Christian interested in inserting the interpolation in the first place.

d. a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure.

The phrase "receive the truth with pleasure" is characteristically Josephan.

In particular, Thackeray, the prince of Josephan scholars, who went so far in his study of Josephus' language as to compose a lexicon to Josephus for his own use so as to see how precisely each word is used in Josephus and whether there is evidence of shifts of style in various parts of his works due to his "assistants" or to other reasons, noted that the phrase 'such people as accept the truth gladly' is characteristic of the scribe in this part of the Antiquities, since the phrase appears eight times in books 17-19 (supposedly the work of the Thucydidean assistant) and nowhere else in Josephus.

(Louis H. Feldman, "The Testimonium Flavianum, The State of the Question," Christological Perspectives, Eds. Robert F. Berkley and Sarah Edwards, page 188).

The concentration of the phrase "received the truth with pleasure" in these three chapters serves as even stronger evidence for authenticity. Furthermore, it is unlikely that a Christian would have used such a phrase to describe Jesus or Christians. As Professor Feldman notes, "Christian interpolation is unlikely, since the word in the New Testament and in early Christian writings had a pejorative connotation." (Ibid). Van Voorst agrees, "because Christians generally avoid a positive use of the word 'pleasure,' with its connotation of 'hedonism,' [] it is difficult to imagine a Christian scribe using it here about Jesus' followers." (Van Voorst, op. cit., 90).

e. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.

This statement probably could not have been written by a Christian because it so obviously contradicts the portrait of Jesus' ministry in the Gospels. Indeed, it directly contradicts several assertions made by the Gospel about Jesus and Gentiles.

In the whole of John's Gospels, no one clearly designated a Gentile ever interacts directly with Jesus; the very fact that Gentiles seek to speak to Jesus is a sign to him that the hour of his passion, which alone makes a universal mission possible, is at hand (John 12:20-26). In Matthew's Gospels, where a few exceptions to the rule are allowed . . . we find a pointedly programmatic saying in Jesus' mission charge to the Twelve: 'Go not to the Gentiles, and do not enter a Samaritan city; rather, go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6). The few gentiles who do come into contact with Jesus are not objects of Jesus' missionary outreach; they rather come to him unbidden and humble, realizing they are out place. For Matthew, they point forward to the universal mission, which begins only after Jesus' death and resurrection (28:16-20). While Mark and Luke are not as explicit as Matthew on this point, they basically follow the same pattern: during his public ministry, Jesus does not undertake any formal mission to the Gentiles; the few who come to him do so by way of exception.

Hence the implication of the Testimonium that Jesus equally won a large following among both Jews and Gentiles simply contradicts the clear statements about the Gospels. Unless we want to fantasize about a Christian interpolator who is intent on inserting a summary of Jesus' ministry into Josephus and who nevertheless wishes to contradict what the Gospels say about Jesus' ministry, the obvious conclusion to draw is that the core of the Testimonium comes from a nonChristian hand, namely, Josephus'. Understandably, Josephus simply retrojected the situation of his own day, into the time of Jesus. Naive retrojection is a common trait of Greco-Roman historians.

(Meier, op. cit., page 64-65).

Accordingly, this statement is much more likely to be authentic to Josephus than a Christian invention. The notion that it served some apologetic purpose of Eusebius, as argued by Olson and Kirby, is erroneous. As I suggest below, Olson's theory of Eusebian interpolation is unpersuasive and his explanation of Eusebius' use of TF for apologetic purposes is particularly misguided. Moreover, it fails to account for Josephus' substantial influence on Eusebius. (See, Eusebius, The History of the Church, ed. Andrew Louth, page 382).

f. He was the Christ,

This is clearly an interpolation using blatantly New Testament language about Jesus. A Jew such as Josephus would not refer to Jesus as the Messiah. But, if a Christian had written the entire TF, he would likely have placed this phrase earlier in the passage. As Meier notes:

"He was the Messiah" seems out of place in its present position and disturbs the flow of thought. If it were present at all, one would expect it to occur immediately after either "Jesus" or "wise man," where the further identification would make sense.

Meier, op. cit., page 60.

Some scholars have argued that this phrase originally was "he was thought to be the Christ," but that the interpolator changed it because he could not let such a statement stand. "And if ... Josephus had written 'he was the so-called Christ' (ho legomenos Christos), it would have been natural for a Christian reviser to leave out legomenos." (France, op. cit., page 30). Although Meier disagrees, such a tentative phrase would actually make sense after explaining the nature of Jesus' ministry. And it would especially make sense as an explanation that Jesus had "gained a following both among Jews and among many of Greek origin." So, while "he was the Christ" is obviously not original to the text and is out of place, it is possible -- perhaps likely -- that the TF originally stated that "he was thought to be the Christ." Indeed, based on the manuscript evidence, this reconstruction is likely.

g. and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross,

The mention of Pilate is neutral, as it would be used by a Jewish historian or a Christian familiar with the Gospel narratives. Thus, it does not favour either theory.

The reference to "principal men" is very common in Josephus, but has no counterpart in the Gospels or in any other early Christian literature. A Christian would be much more likely to refer to "the Jews" or "the Sanhedrin", or even the "Sadducees" and/or "Pharisees." Accordingly, it is typically and uniquely Josephan. As for the phrase "among us," it is often used by Josephus (Preface of Antiquities 1.3; Antiquities 10.2.2; 12.6.2; 14.10.1; 15.3.2; and 15.10.5).

Steve Mason has argued that the phrase "principal men among us" is unusual because Josephus elsewhere only uses the phrase "principal men" to refer "of Jerusalem" or "of the city." (Mason, op. cit., page 169). Yet this provides little support for the total interpolation theory. As Mason himself admits, "Josephus often speaks of the “leading men” among the Jews with the phrase used in the testimonium, especially in book 18 of Antiquities (17.81; 18.7, 99, 121, 376)." (Mason, op. cit., page 169). That this phrase has a higher concentration of occurrences in Book 18 is credible evidence that we have here a stylistic occurrence that attests to heavy influence of one of Josephus' assistants, or at least a peculiar focus on the term by Josephus in Book 18. Given the unusual focus on that phrase in this Book, it is not surprising that it would find itself used in conjunction with the very common Josephan phrase "among us." Notably, Mason does not find this usage as in any way conclusive as evidence against partial authenticity. As he notes, "although some of the language in the testimonium is odd, we have no linguistic basis for dismissing the whole paragraph." (Mason, op. cit., page 170). Indeed, Mason favors the partial interpolation theory (Ibid., page 171).

Finally, unlike the Gospels, this phrase simply notes that Jesus was crucified at the instigation of some of the leading Jewish men. This bland reference makes more sense for Josephus than it would for a Christian writer, who would be more eager to describe how their motives in killing Jesus were improper or at least unjustified.

h. those that loved him at the first did not forsake him;

Steve Mason argues that the phrase "they did not forsake" must be "be completed by the translator, for it is left incomplete in the text; the action which his followers ceased must be understood from the preceding phrase. This is as peculiar in Greek as it is in English, and such a construction is not found elsewhere in Josephus' writing." Mason, op. cit., page 169. Two other scholars, however, note that this phrase is characteristic of Josephus. Professor Van Voorst states that "'Those who had first loved him did not cease [doing so]' is characteristically Josephan in style...." (Van Voorst, Op. cit., page 90). Professor Yamuchi similarly notes that this phrase "conforms to Josephus' characteristic style." (Edwin M. Yamuchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament" in Jesus Under Fire, Eds. Michael J. Wilkin and J.P. Moreland, page 213).

Perhaps the reason that it appears to be "left incomplete in the text" is because the text itself is deficient. Such omissions are common in the Antiquities textual tradition. Citing a study by G.L. Richards in the Journal of Theological Studies (xliii, page 70, 1941), F.F. Bruce notes, "[i]t has also been pointed out that omission of words and short phrases is characteristic of the textual tradition of the Antiquities . . . ." (Bruce, The New Testament Documents, page 109). At present, therefore, there seems to be insufficient reason to doubt that this passage is Josephan.

i. for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.

This is a clear Christian confession, akin to the creedal "according to the scriptures" of 1 Corinthians. 15:5. But at least part of it fits with Josephus' style:

Although the phrase “divine prophets” sounds peculiar at first, there is a close parallel in Josephus’ description of Isaiah (Antiquities. 10.35). Even the word used for what the prophets “announced” is commonly used by Josephus in conjunction with prophecy.

(Mason, op. cit., page 171).

So part of this phrase shows Josephan characteristics, but as presently articulated has at least been altered by a Christian scribe. Perhaps the best solution is the reconstruction proposed by Robert Eisler: "For it seemed to his followers that having been dead for three days, he had appeared to them alive again, as the divinely inspired prophets had foretold." (Eisler, The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist, page 61). By attributing the belief in resurrection to his followers, rather than himself, Josephus would simply be noting one of the main beliefs of the Christians.

j. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Use of the phrase "the tribe of" has been recognized by many scholars as being typical of Josephus. Even uniquely so. But Kirby relies on Steve Mason to argue that this phrase is "peculiar":

Josephus uses the word "tribe" (phyle) eleven other times. Once it denotes "gender," and once a "swarm" of locusts, but usually signifies distinct people, races, or nationalities: the Jews are a "tribe" (War 3.354; 7.327) as are the Taurians (War 2.366) and Parthians (War 2.379). It is very strange that Josephus should speak of the Christians as a distinct racial group, since he has just said that Jesus was a Jew condemned by Jewish leaders. (Notice, however, that some Christian authors of a later period came to speak of Christianity as a "third race.").

(Mason, op. cit., pages 169-70).

As even Mason's own examples show, however, Josephus does not restrict his usage of the phrase "the tribe of" to "distinct racial group[s]." (emphasis added). Nor do I find it reasonable to argue that Josephus would have thought of Christians simply as Jews. After all, though Jesus was a Jew, the TF is quite clear that Christians were both Jews and Greeks. Thus, they were not simply a Jewish sect in Josephus' eyes but a group that was distinct from the Jews and the Greeks. Given that the phrase "tribe of" is used with diversity in Josephus -- referring to a variety of groups, to females, and to locusts -- there is nothing unusual about its use here. Indeed, it is hard to take seriously the notion that Josephus would have felt free to use the phrase "tribe of" to describe bugs but not Christians. Thus, the phrase "tribe of" used by Josephus to describe Christians should be seen as characteristically Josephan.

Furthermore, "calling Christians a 'tribe' would also be unusual for a Christian scribe; a follower of a missionizing faith would be uncomfortable with the more narrow, particularistic implications of this word." (Van Voorst, op. cit., page 90). As Van Voorst notes, Eusebius -- whose writings were heavily influenced by Josephus' -- was the first Christian to use such a term for Christians. Accordingly, it is more reasonable to believe that Josephus applies this term to Christians than it is to suspect an early Christian interpolator invented it.
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Old 09-18-2011, 09:00 AM   #28
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And this has to be a joke: "Second, Olson completely ignores the probable existence of Antiquities manuscripts independent of Eusebius which also contain the TF."

Here's what he says about the 'joke':
Quote:
5. Textual Variants in the Manuscript Tradition Suggest an Authentic Core

There is persuasive evidence that earlier Antiquities manuscripts lacked the phrases "he was the Christ" and "if indeed it is right to call him a man."

First, Ambrose (or Pseudo-Hegesippus) -- despite using the TF as a polemic for the divinity of Christ -- never notes that Josephus called Jesus "the Christ." Writing around 30 or so years after Eusebius, he quotes from the TF:

The Jews themselves also bear witness to Christ, as appears by Josephus, the writer of their history, who says thus: 'That there was at that time a wise man, if (says he) it be lawful to have him called a man, a doer of wonderful works, who appeared to his disciples after the third day from his death, alive again according to the writings of the prophets, who foretold these and innumerable other miraculous events concerning him: from whom began the congregation of Christians, yet he was no believer, because of the hardness of his heart and his prejudicial intention. However, it was no prejudice to the truth that he was not a believer, but this adds more weight to his testimony, that while he was an unbeliever and unwilling, this should be true, he has not denied it to be so.

Ambrose has cited from the TF every positive statement about Jesus to use in his argument that Jesus was divine. He notes that Jesus was wise, recites the "if it is lawful" reference, notes that he did "wonderful works," and records that he "appeared to his disciples" and that he did many other miraculous things. However, Ambrose completely fails to note that Josephus claimed that Jesus was the Christ. In fact, he seems to understand that Josephus was clearly an unbeliever. It is very unlikely that Ambrose would have ignored such a strong attestation of Jesus -- if it existed in his manuscript. Clearly, his manuscript did not contain that phrase (though it is possible that he would leave out a statement that "he was called the Christ" because it implied disbelief). Therefore, this citation of the TF strongly suggests that within 30 years of Eusebius' writings, there existed a Greek manuscript tradition of Antiquities that omitted the phrase "he was the Christ."

Second, Jerome -- writing at the end of the Fourth Century -- also cites the TF and explicitly differs from Eusebius' version by noting that Josephus merely stated that Jesus was "called the Christ."

Josephus in the 18th book of Antiquities, most expressly acknowledges that Christ was slain by the Pharisees, on account of the greatness of his miracles.... Now he wrote concerning our Lord after this manner: "At the same time there was Jesus, a wise man, if yet it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of those who willingly receive the truth. He had many followers both of the Jews and of the Gentiles -- he was believed to be the Christ. And when by the envy of our principal men, Pilate had condemned him to the cross, yet notwithstanding those who had loved him at first persevered, for he appeared to them alive on the third day, as the oracles of the prophets had foretold many of these and other wonderful things concerning him: and the sect of Christians so named from him are not extinct to this day.

As with Ambrose, Jerome's manuscript was different than the one used by Eusebius in that it lacked the definitive statement "he was the Christ." As Alice Whealey notes, "the fact that the passage is quoted by Jerome in a slightly variant form in this period, which reads, 'he was believed to be the Christ' rather than the textus receptus' 'he was the Christ' is not proof of Jerome's own doubts about its authenticity, as is occasionally alleged. Rather, it is evidence that in addition to the textus receptus a variant version of the Testimonium in Greek was still in circulation in late antiquity." (The Testimonium Flavianum Controversy from Antiquity to the Present, 2000 SBL Josephus Seminar). Louis Feldman agrees:

An examination of the citation shows that though he is clearly quoting, Jerome says that Jesus credebatur esse Christus. Hence his text said not that Jesus was the Messiah, but that he was believed to be a Messiah. This would fit the statement, noted above of Origen, to whom Jerome was so indebted, that Josephus did not admit Jesus to be the Christ.

(Feldman, op. cit., page 184).

Third, there is a Syriac version of the TF that is referenced in the 12th century work, compiled by the Patriarch of Antioch, Michael the Syrian, which lends even more support to Jerome's version of the TF. While tracking our current TF more or less, the Syriac version departs from it by stating that "he was believed to be the Christ" rather than "he was the Christ." And as Whealey notes, "Latin and Syriac writers did not read each others' works in late antiquity. Both, however, had access to Greek works. The only plausible conclusion is that Jerome and some Syriac Christian (probably the seventh century James of Edessa) both had access to a Greek version of the Testimonium containing the passage 'he was believed to be the Christ' rather than 'he was the Christ.'" (Whealey, op. cit. at 10, n. 9).

Finally, an Arabic version of the Testimonium recounted in the Tenth Century work, "Book of the Title." The author was Agapius, a Christian Arab and Melkite bishop of Hierapolis. His recitation of the TF did not come to light until 1971. It is translated thus:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

This version lacks some of the obvious Christian interpolations, such as "he was the Messiah" and "if he can be called a man," though apparently adds glosses such as "and his conduct was good," and "he was known to be virtuous." James Charlesworth, a leading New Testament scholar at Princeton, states that this Arabic version "provides textual justification for excising the Christian passages and demonstrating that Josephus probably discussed Jesus in Antiquities 18." (James Charlesworth, "Research on the Historical Jesus Today: Jesus and the Pseudigrapha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi Codices, Josephus, and Archeology," Princeton Seminary Bulletin, vol. Vi, page 110).

This version provides additional evidence that "he was the Messiah" was not a part of earlier Antiquities manuscripts, but also indicates that "if he can be called a man" was not in some manuscripts. Furthermore, this is the only citation of the TF that I have found which is equivocal about the resurrection, noting only that "they reported" that Jesus appeared alive. I am sceptical that any Christian would intentionally soften the attestation to Christianity's most important miracle. The better explanation is that the author was relying on a manuscript that claimed only that Jesus' followers claimed he was resurrected. Though I am sceptical of claims that this Arabic version is the authentic TF, it provides reason to believe that the most prominent Christian glosses were not a part of earlier manuscripts.

In summary, the manuscript evidence shows that at least one of the blatant Christian interpolations ("he was the Christ") was not a part of earlier versions of the TF. This alone adds weight to the partial authenticity theory because it shows that earlier versions were even more Josephan than our present one. But there is also evidence that other blatant Christian interpolations may have been absent from the earliest form of the TF. All told, this shows that the linguistic evidence assessed above is probably tilted against partial authenticity because it counts Christian additions we now know were likely not present in the TF's earlier forms. Thus, the manuscript evidence assessed here enhances the already strong linguistic arguments for Josephan authorship of the core of the TF.
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Old 09-18-2011, 09:00 AM   #29
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I think #2 would be the option left after applying Occam's razor.

Interestingly, the TF describes Jesus as a 'wise man'. I see this pattern in other pagan writers, sometimes while complaining that the Christians themselves as part of a superstitious cult.

Lucian writes:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/lucian.html
It was impressed on them too by their lawgiver that from the moment they are converted, deny the gods of Greece, worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws, they are all brothers. They take his instructions completely on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods and hold them in common ownership. So any adroit, unscrupulous fellow, who knows the world, has only to get among these simple souls and his fortune is quickly made; he plays with them.
Pliny the Younger:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/pliny.html
They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so....

Accordingly I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.
Tacitus has nothing good to say about Christ, but he highlights the superstitious nature of the Christians.

If Tacitus is correct that Christianity was seen as a superstitious cult by 60 CE, then it seems odd to me that Josephus, writing in Rome and to a Roman audience, has nothing bad to say about the Christians of his time.
Ah - maybe it's a case of the dog that did not bark........
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Old 09-18-2011, 09:09 AM   #30
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Default The Master Forger Hypothesis and the "Multiple Forgeries Hypothesis"

Hi TedM,

I think it is an interesting idea to think of the TF interpolator as clever and the James, brother of the lord, interpolator as dumb or at least blunt.

Our problem is that we also have to explain Origen's statements in "Against Celsus" regarding what was in Josephus (1:47):

Quote:
I would like to say to Celsus, who represents the Jew as accepting somehow John as a Baptist, who baptized Jesus, that the existence of John the Baptist, baptizing for the remission of sins, is related by one who lived no great length of time after John and Jesus. For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless--being, although against his will, not far from the truth--that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus (called Christ),--the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice.
First note that Origen says that Josephus testifies to John doing a baptism for "remission of sins." However, in our current copy of Josephus, the text clearly rejects this and says it was not for remission of sins, but purification of the body. It says that John:

Quote:
"commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body"
While the translator Whitston has put in the word "only" to try to save Origen's interpretation, and makes the sentence incredibly confusing and nonsensical in the process, the translator of Eusebius' "Church History," Arthur Cushman McGiffert, gives the clear meaning:

Quote:
5. For Herod slew him, a good man and one who exhorted the Jews to come and receive baptism, practicing virtue and exercising righteousness toward each other and toward God; for baptism would appear acceptable unto Him when they employed it, not for the remission of certain sins, but for the purification of the body, as the soul had been already purified in righteousness.
This strongly suggests interpolation in the John passage.

Origen also reads a passage in Josephus about James that we do not have:

Quote:
Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless--being, although against his will, not far from the truth--that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus (called Christ)
This strongly suggest interpolation in the James passage. At some point, it seems, something about James being the cause of the destruction must have been in the Josephus text.

We should also note some of the information from DCHindley's post and add a bit. The death of James tales in Eusebius seem to be a retcon (retroactive construction) from Josephus' book 4 in Wars:
Quote:
4:3 3. Now this exit of the messengers was not known either to Ananus or to the guards, but the approach of the Idumeans was known to him; for as he knew of it before they came, he ordered the gates to be shut against them, and that the walls should be guarded. Yet did not he by any means think of fighting against them, but, before they came to blows, to try what persuasions would do. Accordingly, Jesus, the eldest of the high priests next to Ananus, stood upon the tower that was over against them, and said thus:
Quote:
4.5.2 I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. He was on other accounts also a venerable, and a very just man; and besides the grandeur of that nobility, and dignity, and honor of which he was possessed, he had been a lover of a kind of parity, even with regard to the meanest of the people; he was a prodigious lover of liberty, and an admirer of a democracy in government; and did ever prefer the public welfare before his own advantage, and preferred peace above all things; for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not to be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed; to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived, they had certainly compounded matters; for he was a shrewd man in speaking and persuading the people, and had already gotten the mastery of those that opposed his designs, or were for the war. And the Jews had then put abundance of delays in the way of the Romans, if they had had such a general as he was. Jesus was also joined with him; and although he was inferior to him upon the comparison, he was superior to the rest; and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness. And this at last was the end of Ananus and Jesus.
We can add to this the description of the death of Zacherius

Quote:
4:5.4. And now these zealots and Idumeans were quite weary of barely killing men, so they had the impudence of setting up fictitious tribunals and judicatures for that purpose; and as they intended to have Zacharias the son of Baruch, one of the most eminent of the citizens, slain, - so what provoked them against him was, that hatred of wickedness and love of liberty which were so eminent in him: he was also a rich man, so that by taking him off, they did not only hope to seize his effects, but also to get rid of a mall that had great power to destroy them. So they called together, by a public proclamation, seventy of the principal men of the populace, for a show, as if they were real judges, while they had no proper authority. Before these was Zacharias accused of a design to betray their polity to the Romans, and having traitorously sent to Vespasian for that purpose. Now there appeared no proof or sign of what he was accused; but they affirmed themselves that they were well persuaded that so it was, and desired that such their affirmation might he taken for sufficient evidence. Now when Zacharias clearly saw that there was no way remaining for his escape from them, as having been treacherously called before them, and then put in prison, but not with any intention of a legal trial, he took great liberty of speech in that despair of his life he was under. Accordingly he stood up, and laughed at their pretended accusation, and in a few words confuted the crimes laid to his charge; after which he turned his speech to his accusers, and went over distinctly all their transgressions of the law, and made heavy lamentation upon the confusion they had brought public affairs to: in the mean time, the zealots grew tumultuous, and had much ado to abstain from drawing their swords, although they designed to preserve the appearance and show of judicature to the end. They were also desirous, on other accounts, to try the judges, whether they would be mindful of what was just at their own peril. Now the seventy judges brought in their verdict that the person accused was not guilty, as choosing rather to die themselves with him, than to have his death laid at their doors; hereupon there arose a great clamor of the zealots upon his acquittal, and they all had indignation at the judges for not understanding that the authority that was given them was but in jest. So two of the boldest of them fell upon Zacharias in the middle of the temple, and slew him; and as he fell down dead, they bantered him, and said, "Thou hast also our verdict, and this will prove a more sure acquittal to thee than the other." They also threw him down from the temple immediately into the valley beneath it.
We may suppose that at some point Christians made a total rewrite of these passages and the Characters of Ananus, Jesus and Zacharias became James.

If we can believe Jerome, at some point this patchwork fiction of the death of James, created from the deaths of Ananus, Jesus and Zacharias in Jospephus' "Wars" was placed inside the 20th book of "Antiguities."

Jerome On Famous Men, 2:
Quote:
c) Josephus also in the twentieth book of his Antiquities, and Clement in the seventh of his Outlines, mention that, on the death of Festus who reigned over Judea, Albinus was sent by Nero as his successor. Before he had reached his province, Ananias the high priest, the youthful son of Ananus of the priestly class taking advantage of the state of anarchy, assembled a council and publicly tried to force James to deny that Christ is the son of God. When he refused Ananius ordered him to be stoned.

d) Cast down from a pinnacle of the temple, his legs broken, but still half alive, raising his hands to heaven he said: Lord, forgive them for they know not what they do. Then struck on the head by the club of a fuller, such a club as fullers are accustomed to wring out garments with, he died.

e) This same Josephus records the tradition that this James was of such great sanctity and reputation among the people that the downfall of Jerusalem was believed to be on account of his death.
So we have good evidence for at least three forgeries, in the John passage, the TF and the James passage, which seems to have taken place from the time of Clement of Alexandria (c. 200) to Jerome (c. 400).

An alternative explanation that I have proposed before is that there is really only one forger - Eusebius. He forged the changes to the text of Josephus and than forged references to them in the text of Clement and Origen. However, he wasn't quite sure how clever or blunt he should be. He kept changing his mind, making changes and then sometimes restoring the original text when he saw that things didn't make sense, but leaving the forged references in the other works. He didn't bother to change them, thinking that they would just be puzzled over as unexplained mysteries. It would even make him look wiser than Clement and Origen.

We can call this the "Master Forger Hypothesis" in opposition to the "Multiple Forgeries Hypothesis."

Warmly,

Jay Raskin


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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay View Post
We may assume the same methodology in the TF. Whatever was written there originally by Josephus had nothing to do with the Jesus of Nazareth stories.
This would be an argument in favor of a 'clever interpolator', would you agree?
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