Tod

Hi Amlodhi...

That is interesting stuff to be sure. I have little doubt that much of particularly the older Hebrew stories are adaptations of Mesopotamian stories of a Sumerian or Babylonian origin.

In fact considering that the book of Genesis itself says that Abraham is from Ur, I'm quite sure that is the case. Especially since they later spent decades of their existence in Babylonia during the Exile.

If Noah isn't a rip-off of the Sumerian Ziusudra or the later Babylonian Utnapishtim, I'm next in line to the British throne!

I haven't heard of that book you cite though. It sounds interesting. Do you know of any similar, more recently written books?

Amlodhi

Hi Tod,

To the Babylonians, the Sumerian language was considered the language of scholars in the same way as was Latin to later cultures.

The Babylonians were enamored with the Sumerians and the Sumerian language but altered many of the Sumerian tales to conform with their own national gods and culture.

There are a number of places to obtain translations. A quick google search with any relevant search terms will provide several options.

There are also several options for printed material. There is an inexpensive paperback available titled "Myths from Mesopotamia" from Oxford University Press, published in 1989.

One of my favorite references is "Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament", James B. Pritchard ed.; Princeton University Press 1969, 3rd edition with supplement. This is an extraordinary compilation of not only Sumerian, Akkadian and Babylonian texts relating to the OT but also, later historical inscriptions and letters from and concerning various kings and cultures including Babylonia, Egypt, Assyria, Judea, etc.

Although this volume is unusually expensive, I have found it to be well worth the purchase price.


Namaste'

Amlodhi

Koyaanisqatsi

Did they now? Then why didn't they refuse the eating of the apple? They were just idiots? God's image was that of an idiot?

So god instructed them to be idiots?

I see. So, prior to eating the apple, they knew the "right" thing, because god told them what the right thing was and they knew the "wrong" thing, because god told them what that was. So, how did they choose the "wrong" thing, again?

"I tempt you to jump off a building."
"No, I won't, since I know that's the wrong thing."
"But I tempt you."
"Oh, well, so long as you tempt me, I'll forget my knowledge of right and wrong and deliberately do the wrong thing, even though I, apparently, know right from wrong."

Is that how it went?

Oh, you're an atheist. My mistake.

premjan

I think the closest verbal cognate to Noah (and Nuh from the Koran) is Manu from Hindu tradition. No matter where the story came from and who borrowed it from whom, I suspect these three names may be different versions of the same name.

utNApishtim also has a na in it, but ziusudra is a totally different-sounding word.

Doctor X

Amlodhi:

Yes! And it looks very impressive on the coffee table--even more so than a Hawking book!

premjan:

I am not sure that is relevant. Cultures can take myths without taking names.

--J.D.

Amlodhi

Alas! I have no coffee table.

Doctor X

You could put it on top of your toilet. . .

. . . I mean that was good enough for the Ossary. . . .

--J.D.

Amlodhi

I considered that, but I was afraid my mom would come over and try to clean it with a sharp instrument.

beastmaster

Not idiots. Under the fairest reading of the text, with a mind toward understanding the intent of the fabulist, it appears that, before eating the fruit, A&E were similar to intelligent children.

Even a smart kid, lacking independent knowledge of good and evil, does know enough to obey his/her parents' instruction in good and evil, although he/she at times may be inclined to disobey for whatever reason.

I agree that the story is vulnerable to criticism for (possibly) containing a hidden circularity of reasoning. But the vulnerability to criticism has more to do with the author's vagueness about what exactly are the properties of the fruit of KoG&E. And I don't think we can know exactly the powers of this fruit just by reading Genesis.

However, after reading the story many several times, it appears to me that the author is saying that the pre-Fall A&E had an inborn (amoral) inclination to obey YHWH owing to his authority as the Creator, but that this inclination was vulnerable to temptation by the snake due to the condition of man's separation from god. After eating the fruit, A&E gained moral consciences that were independent of YHWH and were not based simply on obedience to his authority. A&E were liable for punishment, not for a failure of moral reasoning, but for a failure in (amoral) obedience.

And these acts of disobedience, coincident with the emergence of an independent moral mind, play out in every person's life circa age 13. It's basically a just-so story: "Why Are Teenagers Trouble?"

Yeah, I'm just trying to make sense of the Fall story -- no religious agenda whatsoever.

Peter Kirby

Ah, beastmaster, a kindred spirit! I now think I was right in guessing that the Original Sin was independent thought.

best,
Peter Kirby