Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vid · 08-02-2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Statius mentions the typical Mithraic relief in his Thebaid (Book i. 719,720), around 80 CE.

Fast googling: http://www.theoi.com/Text/StatiusThebaid1.html

Quote:

be thou present to our succour, mindful of our hospitality, and shed on the fields of Juno62 the blessings of thy love, whether ‘tis right to call thee rosy Titan, in the fashion of the Achaemenian race,63 or Osiris bringer of the harvest, or Mithras, that beneath the rocky Persean cave strains at the reluctant-following horns.

...

63. The reference is to the sun-worship of the Persians; Mithras is frequently represented dragging a bull to be sacrificed. “Persean,” from Perses, son of Perseus and Andromeda, founder of the Persian nation, cf. Hdt. vii. 61.

If 80CE dating is correct, this seems to imply Mithraism was already somewhat big then, at least in area where this was written. Nothing groundbreaking though, I don't remember anyone objecting to Mithraism being present (or even big) in 1st century in Roman area.

Also on the quick browsing through this book, I see it is full of bull-slaying-in-the-neck imaginery, yet no another reference to Mithraism with regard to this is made. Somehow after going thru this book I feel that bull slaying was a common ancient Rome meme outside Mithraism, and we should be careful about associating any bull slaying scene with Mithraism without any other clues.

mountainman · 08-02-2008, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I will return to your earlier questions later, be patient. But for the moment since you bring up opinion of the emperor Julian, why dont we allow him to set the scene for what it may have been like to be a votary of the sun. Julian's first care had been to erect a temple to the Sun, within the palace precincts, in which he began each day with sacrifice to that luminary. Here is what he says:

You do know of course that what you quote is actually a forgery produced under the direction of Cyril.

Jeffrey

SOLI INVICTO 162-8 CE (epigraphic evidence)

Corbridge, Northumberland RIB 1137 (date: 162-8)

Quote:

SOLI INVICTO VEXILLATIO LEG VI VIC P F F SVB CVRA SEX CALPVRNI AGRICO LAE LEG AVG PR PR

"To the Invincible Sun-god, a detachment of the Sixth Legion, Victorious, Loyal and Faithful (set this up) under the command of Sextus Calpurnius Agricola, Legate of the Augustus with pro-praetorian power."

Where is the equivalent evidence for the existence of "christianity" a la Eusebius? The Mithras: literary references need to viewed alongside the Mithras: epigraphic evidence lest one develops an unbalanced picture of the available evidence. Was the ancient Sun God hijacked by the Boss (along with the Hebrew Bible)?

Best wishes,

Pete

Roger Pearse · 08-02-2008, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Quote:

anniversaries of the consecration of temples, perhaps, rather than divine birthdays?

possible... but is there any ancient evidence of using "natalis <deity>" for anniversary of consecration of temple, instead of literal meaning?

The OLD entry for the noun reads (p.1157):

natalis, ~is, m
1 The day of one's birth; an anniversary of that day, birthday; b the day of the foundation of a city, temple, etc, or its anniversary. c (applied to other days regarded as the beginning of a new life)....

2 The day on which a thing is produced or made....

(3-7 Long list of things connected with starting or being born)

References for 'b':

quod fit ~i nunc quoque, Roma, tuo. Ovid. Fast. 4.806.

XI Kal. Mai. urbis Romae ~is. Plin. Nat. 18.247.

(of military standards) OB ~ES SIGNOR(um) VEXILLIARORU(um) COH(ortis) III. CIL 2.2553.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle · 08-02-2008, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Statius mentions the typical Mithraic relief in his Thebaid (Book i. 719,720), around 80 CE.

Fast googling: http://www.theoi.com/Text/StatiusThebaid1.html

Quote:

be thou present to our succour, mindful of our hospitality, and shed on the fields of Juno62 the blessings of thy love, whether ‘tis right to call thee rosy Titan, in the fashion of the Achaemenian race,63 or Osiris bringer of the harvest, or Mithras, that beneath the rocky Persean cave strains at the reluctant-following horns.

...

63. The reference is to the sun-worship of the Persians; Mithras is frequently represented dragging a bull to be sacrificed. “Persean,” from Perses, son of Perseus and Andromeda, founder of the Persian nation, cf. Hdt. vii. 61.

If 80CE dating is correct, this seems to imply Mithraism was already somewhat big then, at least in area where this was written. Nothing groundbreaking though, I don't remember anyone objecting to Mithraism being present (or even big) in 1st century in Roman area.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/StatiusThebaid12.html

Quote:

Wilt thou endure in the time to come, O my Thebaid, for twelve years object of my wakeful toil, wilt thou survive thy master and be read? Of a truth already present Fame hath paved thee a friendly road, and begun to hold thee up, young as thou art, to future ages. Already great-hearted Caesar deigns to know thee, and the youth of Italy eagerly learns and recounts thy verse. O live, I pray! nor rival the divine Aeneid, but follow afar and ever venerate its footsteps. Soon, if any envy as yet o’erclouds thee, it shall pass away, and, after I am gone, thy well-won honours shall be duly paid.

The Thebaid is on this and other evidence usually dated as written between around 81 CE and 93 CE when it was published late in the reign of Domitian (great-hearted Caesar). The date of the reference to Mithras in book 1 depends on whether it was part of the original form of book 1 (around 81) or added as part of later revision for publication (around 93) .

Andrew Criddle

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-02-2008, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

PEDESTAL FOUND AT CARNUNTUM. The gift of Diocletian, Valerius, and Licinius. (T. et M., p. 491.)

Franz Cumont [1903]

Quote:

In the year 307 A.D., Diocletian, Galerius, and Licinius, at their conference in Carnuntum, dedicated with one accord a temple to Mithra fautori imperii sui (Figure 19), and the last pagan that occupied the throne of the Cæsars, Julian the Apostate, was an ardent votary of this tutelar god, whom he caused to be worshipped in Constantinople.

Another Cyrillian forgery designed to make those emperors look bad.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-02-2008, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Has anyone read Ammianus' obituary to Constantine?

Why should anyone answer this question of yours when were still waiting to have your promised answer to the question of whether you've actually read Bede and will produce the text of his in which he speaks of Litha and the Celts in the particular way you claimed he did?

Jeffrey

mountainman · 08-02-2008, 05:22 PM

Here is Bede, on 'Eostre'

Quote:

15. The English Months

In olden time the English people -- for it did not seem fitting to me that I should speak of other people's observance of the year and yet be silent about my own nation's -- calculated their months according to the course of the moon. Hence, after the manner of the Greeks and the Romans (the months) take their name from the Moon, for the Moon is called mona and the month monath.

The first month, which the Latins call January, is Giuli; February is called Solmonath; March Hrethmonath; April, Eosturmonath; May, Thrimilchi;

June, Litha; July, also Litha;

August, Weodmonath; September, Halegmonath; October, Winterfilleth; November, Blodmonath; December, Giuli, the same name by which January is called. ...

Nor is it irrelevant if we take the time to translate the names of the other months. ... Hrethmonath is named for their goddess Hretha, to whom they sacrificed at this time. Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance. Thrimilchi was so called because in that month the cattle were milked three times a day...

Looks like the mid summer was known as Litha.

Best wishes,

Pete

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-02-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Here is Bede, on 'Eostre'

Quote:

15. The English Months

In olden time the English people -- for it did not seem fitting to me that I should speak of other people's observance of the year and yet be silent about my own nation's -- calculated their months according to the course of the moon. Hence, after the manner of the Greeks and the Romans (the months) take their name from the Moon, for the Moon is called mona and the month monath.

The first month, which the Latins call January, is Giuli; February is called Solmonath; March Hrethmonath; April, Eosturmonath; May, Thrimilchi;

June, Litha; July, also Litha;

August, Weodmonath; September, Halegmonath; October, Winterfilleth; November, Blodmonath; December, Giuli, the same name by which January is called. ...

Nor is it irrelevant if we take the time to translate the names of the other months. ... Hrethmonath is named for their goddess Hretha, to whom they sacrificed at this time. Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance. Thrimilchi was so called because in that month the cattle were milked three times a day...

Looks like the mid summer was known as Litha.

It does? It looks like a month (or two), not a day or a festival, was known to the English people (Anglorum populi) -- as Lida. And where is it in this "account", i.e., in

Quote:

Antiqui autem Anglorum populi (neque enim mihi congruum videtur, aliarum gentium annalem observantiam dicere, et meae reticere) iuxta cursum lunae suos menses computavere; unde et a luna Hebraeorum et Graecorum more nomen accipiunt. Si quidem apud eos luna mona, mensis monath appellatur. Primusque eorum mensis, quidem Latini Januarium vocant, dicitur Giuli. Deinde Februarius Sol-monath, Martius Rhed-monath, Aprilis Eostur-monath, Maius Thrimylchi, Junius Lida, Julius similiter Lida, Augustus Vueod-monath, September Haleg-monath, Oktober Vuinter-fylleth, November Blod-monath, December Giuli, eodem Januarius nomine, vocatur. Incipiebant autem annum ab octavo Calendarum Januariarum die, ubi nunc natale Domini celebramus. Et ipsam noctem nunc nobis sacrosanctum, tunc gentili vocabulo Modranicht, id est, matrum noctem, appellabant, ob causam, ut suspicamur. ceremoniarum quas in ea pervigiles agebant. Et quotiescunque communis esset annus, ternos menses lunares singulis anni temporibus dabant. Cum vero embolismus, hoc est, XIII mensium lunarium annus occurreret, superfluum mensem aestati apponebant, ita ut tunc tres menses simul Lida nomine vocarentur, et ob id annus ille Thri-lidi cognominabatur, habens IV menses aestatis, ternos ut semper temporum caeterorum. Item principaliter annum totum in duo tempora, hyemis, videlicet, et aestatis dispartiebant, sex illos menses quibus longiores noctibus dies sunt aestati tribuendo, sex reliquos hyemi. Unde et mensem quo hyemalia tempora incipiebant Vuinter-fylleth appellabant, composito nomine ab hyeme et plenilunio, quia videlicet a plenilunio eiusdem mensis hyems sortiretur initium. Nec ab re est si et caetera mensium eorum quid significent nomina interpretari curemus. Menses Giuli a conversione solis in auctum diei, quia unus eorum praecedit, alius subsequitur, nomina accipiunt. Sol-monath dici potest mensis placentarum, quas in eo diis suis offerebant; Rhed-monath a deo illorum Rheda, cui in illo sacrificabant, nominatur; Eostur-monath, qui nunc paschalis mensis interpretetur, quondam a dea illorum quae Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant, nomen habuit, a cuius nomine nunc paschale tempus cognominant; consueto antiquae observationis vocabulo gaudia novae solemnitatis vocantes. Tri-milchi dicebatur, quod tribus vicibus in eo per diem pecora mulgebantur. Talis enim erat quondam ubertas Britanniae, vel Germaniae, de qua in Britanniam natio intravit Anglorum. Lida dicitur blandus, sive navigabilis, quod in utroque mense et blanda sit serenitas aurarum, et navigari soleant aequora. Vueod-monath mensis zizaniorum, quod ea tempestate maxime abundent. Halegh-monath mensis sacrorum. Vuinter-fylleth potest dici composito novo nomine hyemeplenilunium. Blot-monath mensis immolationum, quia in ea pecora quae occisuri erant diis suis voverent. Gratias tibi, bone Jesu, qui nos, ab his vanis avertens, tibi sacrificia laudis offere donasti.

that we find Bede telling us, as you said he did, about "how it [Lida] was a very important natural event on the longest day of the year in the northern hemisphere, the day of midsummer or Litha as it was known to the celts"?

Jeffrey

mountainman · 08-04-2008, 09:07 PM

On the claims involving Aurelian:

Quote:

CLAIM 5:
The emperor Aurelian (270-275), whose mother was a priestess of the Sun,

CLAIM 6:
made this solar cult the official religion of the empire.

CLAIM 7:
His biographer, Flavius Vopiscus, tells us that the priests of the Temple of the Sun were called "Pontiffs". They were priests of their dying-rising saviour, Mithra, and reigned as his vicegerents.

CLAIM 8:
Sun worship continued to be the official religion of the empire until the time of Constantine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

In response to a request for evidence for the claims, we get an impudent demand that *we* look it all up, and yet more irrelevant quotations from secondary sources.

Nothing further need be said, I think.

I can't help feeling contempt for anyone who chooses to behave like that, tho.

And don't you know that the coins and images depicting Mithras and Sol Invictus, and all the Mithraic sites (as well as the Persian literature on Mithra -- where's the carbon dating of the MSS?-- as well as the Roman references to Mithras) were produced under the direction of Julian. Geeze, how gullible are you to think otherwise!

Jeffrey

From www.roman-emperors.org on Aurelian ....

Quote:

1.8. The years 274 and 275

After the culmination of the crisis that had started in the fifties and sixties of the third century with the emergence of the Gallic and the Palmyrene Empires, Roman rule was now consolidated again. The emperor initiated necessary reforms in the interior. A monetary reform was enforced [[26]]. People had lost their faith in the antoninianus, a consequence of the swift depreciation during the third century: The antoninianus was officially worth two denars but the governments had debased its weight and its value. The main aim of Aurelian's reform was to reestablish the trust of the people in the antoninianus [[27]].

[b]The emperor tried to achieve more unity in the Empire by establishing Sol invictus as supreme god of the Roman Empire. On coins, Sol is called Dominus imperi Romani. [b] A priesthood called "priests of the Sun-god" was created. At the end of A.D.274, perhaps on the 25th of December (Sol's alleged birthday), he inaugurated the new temple of the Sun-god in Rome on the eastern Campus Martius (today between the Via del Corso and the Piazza San Silvestro). Annual ludi and an agon Solis every fourth year were being held in honor of the Sun-god [[28]]. Aurelian also restored discipline in the army [[29]].

The coinage data and the data obtainable via the Historia Augusta are independent. Did Aurelius in fact inaugurate a new temple of the Sun-god in Rome on the eastern Campus Martius (today between the Via del Corso and the Piazza San Silvestro)? The coinage data alone substantiates these claims. The combination of the monumental evidence presents a very simple picture. We have nothing christian anywhere. All we have is the god of the invincible sun and the solar cults, and their ancient collegiate structure, in existence before the rise of Constantine, who stopped the temple practices and forbade them by means of the military duress c.324 CE onwards. How are either of you to attempt to argue otherwise?

The monumental evidence of the imperial solar cults is ample and sufficient in its own right. It serves to show that Constantine could simply have created another cult because he had the power to do so. Give me some evidence that this is not possible and I will cease and desist this research. Until then, try and deal with the actual evidence, and not the messenger of the message that asks the question where is the evidence for christianity before the rise of the Boss?

Best wishes,

Pete

mountainman · 08-04-2008, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Here is Bede, on 'Eostre'

Looks like the mid summer was known as Litha.

It does? It looks like a month (or two), not a day or a festival, was known to the English people (Anglorum populi) -- as Lida.

What would one then call the season of mid summer if not Litha as does the translator Faith Wallis, (Liverpool University Press 1988, pp.53-54), who uses the term Litha.

Best wishes,

Pete

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.