Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Newton Joseph · 05-14-2004, 08:44 PM

JUST SUPPOSE
By New 10.

Just suppose you were a psychotherapist and you had never heard or read anything about the dogma of Christianity.

Just suppose you had a client who is explaining his internal world to you.

Just suppose he had told you he often has conversations with a man who died over 2000 years ago.

Just suppose you question your client as to what this person looked like and he answers he does not know. When you question his not knowing, he answers "The man I speak to is invisible"

Just suppose you ask him for more details about this invisible man and he answers that the invisible man was his own father and son and the Holy Ghost all at the same time.

Just suppose you press for more information and you are told that this invisible person is really three people but remains one.

Just suppose your client tells you that this invisible man's mother never had sexual relations yet gave birth to this man.
.
Just suppose your client tells you when asked where this invisible man lives that he tells you he lives up there in the stratosphere.

Just suppose your client tells you that once a week he partakes in the ritual of eating this man's flesh and drinking his blood in a mass ceremony with many other people.

Just suppose your client tells you that he will never die because he is going to a place where people will live forever.

Just suppose your client tells you that even though his body will be consumed his soul, that is also invisible, will live forever.

Just suppose your client tells you that he will meet all of his deceased friends and relatives in this place high above the clouds.
Just suppose the client tells you that twice a week he visits a man, who is unseen, in a little cubicle to listen to the crimes he has committed during the week. If the crimes are severe he is told to say a "Hail Mary" prayer ten times depending upon the gravity of the crime and they will be excused.

Just suppose your client tells you that there are certain laws he must follow or he will be punished in a sea of fire for eternity.

Just suppose your client tells you that there is a certain man called the Devil who watches over him in that sea of fire to be sure he suffers.

Just suppose your client tells you that it is okay to suffer pain during your lifetime because he will be rewarded for his suffering after he dies.

Just suppose you have to diagnose your client for a Mental Status Exam, what would be your Diagnoses?
[email protected]
www.atheistfellowship.com

StrictSeparationist · 05-14-2004, 08:46 PM

Just suppose that there were forums at IIDB other than CSS. Forums that covered a wide variety of topics and information. What would you do with these threads?

Newton Joseph · 05-14-2004, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrictSeparationist

Just suppose that there were forums at IIDB other than CSS. Forums that covered a wide variety of topics and information. What would you do with these threads?

WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH MY POST?

Chuck · 05-14-2004, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newton Joseph

WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH MY POST?

I think the more important question is, what does this have to do with your relationship with your father?

Can I stop being a psychotherapist now?

ceinwyn · 05-14-2004, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newton Joseph

WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH MY POST?

OH NOTHING, EXCEPT YOU ARE YELLING. OH WAIT SO AM I. WOW. LOTS WAS ACCOMPLISHED HERE.

The Naked Mage · 05-15-2004, 12:55 AM

This is all well and good, but can we get back to talking about the animal-shaped rocks on Mars having sex with the Pathfinder now?

Javaman · 05-15-2004, 08:31 AM

The point the moderator was making was, your post wasn't related to the forum and should have been started somewhere else... and your post is a repost from elsewhere on the internet (again) and may have been plagerized (or may be your own). So, to reiterate, start posts in applicable fora... if a mod decides it's best suited somewhere else, they'll move it.

scigirl · 05-15-2004, 09:51 AM

To Newton Joseph,

You are correct - Christianity sounds insane when you really look at it. Good analogy - thanks.

Seriously, you do ask a good question. Are Christians insane? Well lets look in the DSM-IV. This is the book that psychiatrists use to diagnose mental illnesses. Their "Bible," if you will.

Before we do, I want to point out that making mental health diagnoses is not easy. Is it insane to think you are a purple tomato? Probably. But if you are able to hold a job, have friends, and drive around ok, then you may not in fact be crazy. Assessment of functional status, as well as a change in functional status, becomes an important part of any psychiatric diagnosis. Christians in general can believe their god-fairy myth and function fairly well in society, whereas a schizophrenic who believes that his dad is trying to kill him often cannot. That's the difference - it aint because the specific beliefs of Xtians are any more rational.

However, the degree to which someone expresses their beliefs may in fact be pathological. Here are the DSM descriptions of delusions and hallucinations. Think about some of the Christians you encounter on TV and on street corners. Do any of these descriptors fit?

Quote:

From the DSM-IV:
Delusions are erroneous beliefs that usually involve a misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g., persecutory, referential, somatic, religious, or grandiose). Persecutory delusions are most common; the person believes he or she is being tormented, followed, tricked, spied on, or ridiculed. Referential delusions are also common; the person believes that certain gestures, comments, passages from books, newspapers, song lyrics, or other environmental cues are specifically directed at him or her. The distinction between a delusion and a strongly held idea is sometimes difficult to make and depends in part on the degree of conviction with which the belief is held despite clear contradictory evidence regarding its veracity.

Although bizarre delusions are considered to be especially characteristic of Schizophrenia, "bizarreness" may be difficult to judge, especially across different cultures. Delusions are deemed bizarre if they are clearly implausible and not understandable and do not derive from ordinary life experiences.

An example of a bizarre delusion is a person's belief that a stranger has removed his or her internal organs and has replaced them with someone else's organs without leaving any wounds or scars. An example of a nonbizarre delusion is a person's false belief that he or she is under surveillance by the police. Delusions that express a loss of control over mind or body are generally considered to be bizarre; these include a person's belief that his or her thoughts have been taken away by some outside force ("thought withdrawal"), that alien thoughts have been put into his or her mind ("thought insertion"), or that his or her body or actions are being acted on or manipulated by some outside force ("delusions of control").

Hallucinations may occur in any sensory modality (e.g., auditory, visual, olfactory, gustatory, and tactile). Auditory hallucinations are usually experienced as voices, whether familiar or unfamiliar, that are perceived as distinct from the person's own thoughts. The hallucinations must occur in the context of a clear sensorium; those that occur while falling asleep (hypnagogic) or waking up (hypnopompic) are considered to be within the range of normal experience. Isolated experiences of hearing one's name called or experiences that lack the quality of an external percept (e.g., a humming in one's head) should also not be considered as symptomatic of Schizophrenia or any other Psychotic Disorder. Hallucinations may be a normal part of religious experience in certain cultural contexts. Certain types of auditory hallucinations (i.e., two or more voices conversing with one another or voices maintaining a running commentary on the person's thoughts or behavior) have been considered to be particularly characteristic of Schizophrenia. If these types of hallucinations are present, then only this single symptom is needed to satisfy Criterion A.

So in general - it does not appear that the belief in a deity and praying to a deity constitute a DSM diagnosis. Probably because they are taught to do so from birth, and they are able to incorporate this non-rational idea into their rational world in a healthy and functional way.

However, a woman who thinks God is telling her to kill her kids (a command hallucination) or a man who thinks God told him that Bush will win re-election (religous delusion of graunder) do in fact make a DSM diagnosis. It's all about the presentation.

Also, some of it depends on comparing the patient to the community at large. Behaviors that are acceptable in other cultures are considered pathological here. And vice versa. Another passage I found interesting:

Quote:

From the DSM-IV:
Clinicians assessing the symptoms of Schizophrenia in socioeconomic or cultural situations that are different from their own must take cultural differences into account. Ideas that may appear to be delusional in one culture (e.g., sorcery and witchcraft) may be commonly held in another. In some cultures, visual or auditory hallucinations with a religious content may be a normal part of religious experience (e.g., seeing the Virgin Mary or hearing God's voice). In addition, the assessment of disorganized speech may be made difficult by linguistic variation in narrative styles across cultures that affects the logical form of verbal presentation. The assessment of affect requires sensitivity to differences in styles of emotional expression, eye contact, and body language, which vary across cultures...There is some evidence that clinicians may have a tendency to overdiagnose Schizophrenia in some ethnic groups. Studies conducted in the United Kingdom and the United States suggest that Schizophrenia may be diagnosed more often in individuals who are African American and Asian American than in other racial groups. It is not clear, however, whether these findings represent true differences among racial groups or whether they are the result of clinician bias or cultural insensitivity.

So Newton, if your alleged patient was being diagnosed in another country - he may be deemed insane. Incorrectly I might add.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newton Joseph

Just suppose you have to diagnose your client for a Mental Status Exam, what would be your Diagnoses?

Minor point, but a Mental Status Exam does not evaluate people for psychiatric diagnoses. It evaluates them for the ability to concentrate, focus, read, write, follow directions, and remember things. An example of a question from the MMSE is "Tell me what day it is" and "Fold this piece of paper and put it on the floor with your left hand."

scigirl

P.S. My apologies for no links. I can access full text of the DSM, but the link won't work for anyone outside the UC network.

scigirl · 05-15-2004, 09:54 AM

Oh and one more thing:

If you can't refrain from using all caps to debate here, I suggest you leave. It's rude, it does nothing to further your argument, and it makes you look like an idiot.

scigirl

Re-edited to add: I thought you were a hit and run poster as evidenced by the two threads that just got moved from CSS and the caps thing. I see you are are a retired psychotherapist so I expect you to know a vast more about the DSM than a lowly second year medical student. :notworthy

But well - the caps thing is still annoying so don't do it! It's like evidence of histrionics or something!

scigirl

Newton Joseph · 05-15-2004, 10:43 AM

To Newton Joseph,

You are correct - Christianity sounds insane when you really look at it. Good analogy - thanks.

Seriously, you do ask a good question. Are Christians insane? Well lets look in the DSM-IV. This is the book that psychiatrists use to diagnose mental illnesses. Their "Bible," if you will.

Don't look in your DSM for informatiion on religion as pathology. The APA sleep
in the same bed as religion
I
THE CORRUPTION OF REALITY ( 2)
By John F. Schumaker,Ph.D
Many people steer away from a scientific study of religion since it is a sensitive issue. However, my own view is that religion, defined the broadest manner possible, and holds the key to a much deeper understanding of human behavior, especially in the area of abnormal behavior. This is because of the very fine line separating religion from many classes of psychopathology, with that line being culture itself. That is, without culture sanction, most or all of our religious beliefs and rituals would fall into the domain of mental disturbance. Religion is abnormal in the literal sense of the word. By this I mean, that, in the course of adopting religion, one is required to construe (or misconstrue) the world in terms or principles that contradict or supersedes naturalistic modes of understanding.

05-14-2004, 08:44 PM	#1
Newton Joseph Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 496	Just Suppose JUST SUPPOSE By New 10. Just suppose you were a psychotherapist and you had never heard or read anything about the dogma of Christianity. Just suppose you had a client who is explaining his internal world to you. Just suppose he had told you he often has conversations with a man who died over 2000 years ago. Just suppose you question your client as to what this person looked like and he answers he does not know. When you question his not knowing, he answers "The man I speak to is invisible" Just suppose you ask him for more details about this invisible man and he answers that the invisible man was his own father and son and the Holy Ghost all at the same time. Just suppose you press for more information and you are told that this invisible person is really three people but remains one. Just suppose your client tells you that this invisible man's mother never had sexual relations yet gave birth to this man. . Just suppose your client tells you when asked where this invisible man lives that he tells you he lives up there in the stratosphere. Just suppose your client tells you that once a week he partakes in the ritual of eating this man's flesh and drinking his blood in a mass ceremony with many other people. Just suppose your client tells you that he will never die because he is going to a place where people will live forever. Just suppose your client tells you that even though his body will be consumed his soul, that is also invisible, will live forever. Just suppose your client tells you that he will meet all of his deceased friends and relatives in this place high above the clouds. Just suppose the client tells you that twice a week he visits a man, who is unseen, in a little cubicle to listen to the crimes he has committed during the week. If the crimes are severe he is told to say a "Hail Mary" prayer ten times depending upon the gravity of the crime and they will be excused. Just suppose your client tells you that there are certain laws he must follow or he will be punished in a sea of fire for eternity. Just suppose your client tells you that there is a certain man called the Devil who watches over him in that sea of fire to be sure he suffers. Just suppose your client tells you that it is okay to suffer pain during your lifetime because he will be rewarded for his suffering after he dies. Just suppose you have to diagnose your client for a Mental Status Exam, what would be your Diagnoses? [email protected] www.atheistfellowship.com

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05-14-2004, 08:46 PM	#2
StrictSeparationist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oberlin, OH Posts: 2,846	Just suppose that there were forums at IIDB other than CSS. Forums that covered a wide variety of topics and information. What would you do with these threads?

05-15-2004, 12:55 AM	#6
The Naked Mage Veteran Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Execution State, USA Posts: 5,031	This is all well and good, but can we get back to talking about the animal-shaped rocks on Mars having sex with the Pathfinder now?

05-15-2004, 08:31 AM	#7
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	The point the moderator was making was, your post wasn't related to the forum and should have been started somewhere else... and your post is a repost from elsewhere on the internet (again) and may have been plagerized (or may be your own). So, to reiterate, start posts in applicable fora... if a mod decides it's best suited somewhere else, they'll move it.

05-15-2004, 09:54 AM	#9
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Oh and one more thing: If you can't refrain from using all caps to debate here, I suggest you leave. It's rude, it does nothing to further your argument, and it makes you look like an idiot. scigirl Re-edited to add: I thought you were a hit and run poster as evidenced by the two threads that just got moved from CSS and the caps thing. I see you are are a retired psychotherapist so I expect you to know a vast more about the DSM than a lowly second year medical student. :notworthy But well - the caps thing is still annoying so don't do it! It's like evidence of histrionics or something! scigirl

05-15-2004, 10:43 AM	#10
Newton Joseph Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 496	To Newton Joseph, You are correct - Christianity sounds insane when you really look at it. Good analogy - thanks. Seriously, you do ask a good question. Are Christians insane? Well lets look in the DSM-IV. This is the book that psychiatrists use to diagnose mental illnesses. Their "Bible," if you will. Don't look in your DSM for informatiion on religion as pathology. The APA sleep in the same bed as religion I THE CORRUPTION OF REALITY ( 2) By John F. Schumaker,Ph.D Many people steer away from a scientific study of religion since it is a sensitive issue. However, my own view is that religion, defined the broadest manner possible, and holds the key to a much deeper understanding of human behavior, especially in the area of abnormal behavior. This is because of the very fine line separating religion from many classes of psychopathology, with that line being culture itself. That is, without culture sanction, most or all of our religious beliefs and rituals would fall into the domain of mental disturbance. Religion is abnormal in the literal sense of the word. By this I mean, that, in the course of adopting religion, one is required to construe (or misconstrue) the world in terms or principles that contradict or supersedes naturalistic modes of understanding.

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