Jade

We are biological machines -- we 'do things' because our genes (reinforced by feedback loops from society) program drives in us. These drives are most basically expressed as 'needs', 'desires', or 'the will' (the impulse or motive power to do something or another). When these drives are run through the part of the brain that translates thoughts into speech, they produce value-statements; such as "I want to live -- I find my continued existence to be important" or "I like having friends -- friendship is good", or "I am curious, and want to learn -- I ought to investigate the world around me".

Morality, at its root, is just a set of valuations, and thus we 'do morality' because we are programmed to. Of course, a large part of morality is also the application of reason to find the optimal solution to the balance of values; e.g. realizing that if everyone indulges the petty whim of killing other people, then no one can reasonably expect stay alive, which is a more important desire than passing whims).
So....things are only meaningful if they exist forever? By that logic it's not worthwhile building a house because it's just going to decay into ruins, or creating a piece of art because eventually it's going to be forgotten....or even that it's not worth cleaning the dishes because they are just going to get dirty again.

Do you see the problem with this kind of thinking?

Dr Zaius

With that said, welcome to II Tancred

Right, there's no divine, magical, ultimate reason to do anything. At least I'm not aware of one. So? Does that bother you? Would pretending that there was a divine, magical, ultimate reason put your mind at ease? Can't you find your own reasons and morals?

Do you think that DMU reason would prevent murder any better than our man-made reasons? Or would it just be easier for you to sleep at night, knowing that those murderers would eventually find their way to that nice warm place we call Hell, or whatever consequence might be attached to that DMU reason of yours.

If you don't mind me asking, why are you pissed off?

"Nazi" admin, here?! Perhaps you should take a stroll over to Theology Web, Christian Forums, Rapture Ready, or Baptist Board. Then maybe you'll see how well things are handled here and that the moderation is so much more thoughtful. This thread found its way to ~E~ for a reason. If you were to post an argument without the angry rant, it might stay wherever you originally sent it.

JGL53

Well, taking your statements as seriously as I can, it seems to me a good analogy would be this-

What if you were kidnapped by a insane person, held in a remote cabin, totally bound and chained to a wall. He presents you with a dilemma of two very unpleasant choices - he promises to let you go, after he has either 1. sliced off your left little finger with a rusty knife or 2. castrated you and, additionally, given you a really bad haircut, both with the same knife.

If these were the ONLY choices possible, which would you chose? Would you say, "Aw, fuck it, I'm going to be dead and non-existent one day, anyhow. So, what difference does it really make - ultimately?.

I suspect you WOULD make a choice, just like I would, i.e., choice #1.

So it would be with belief regarding ontology, if choice is possible in that case also.

I can chose to believe I am a created being who either must slavishly kiss god's ass or be tortured for all eternity. Or, I can be an atheist, and just enjoy to whatever extent it is possible the one life I know I have.

Such might not be the choices I would PREFER. The point is these are my ONLY choices, and I MUST chose one. THAT is the really of the situation. There is no delusion.

So, Mr. Nihilist, would you REALLY chose eternal ass-kissing - or eternal pain - over a temporal life, containing both (subjective) good and bad, followed by non-existence?

Not me.

And, of course, there is a third choice. If you refuse to make a choice between god and atheism, then immediate death would solve your problem.

andy_d

Yep, that's right.

However, since we're not at that end of the timeline, who cares? At the moment it all seems quite relevant. Why bother about what happens after it stops being important when you're living in a time when it is.

HelenM

Tancred,

Since everything is meaningless and pointless, why are you posting here?

What do you hope to achieve? Are you seriously trying to persuade any atheists here to shoot themselves? Are you perhaps hoping an atheist will argue compellingly enough against your arguments that you'll be given a reason not to shoot yourself?

Helen

Infidelettante

It has never ceased to amaze me that you people have so low an opinion of humanity. Even when I was a Fundamentalist Christian I could see that so very few lived up to � or down to, the state of villainy and degradation Christians imagine them to inhabit. Look around you man, where do you find such people? At work? At school? Next door? Do your un-churched relatives murder wantonly? How many rapists do you associate with daily? How often must you save yourself from degenerates and hedonistic savages? Where is all the sin and evil you believe warps our society? I don�t find it in my friends. Nor in my co-workers. Nor in my relatives. Nor in my neighbors.

Any theist who has so vile a view of this existence should curse his God and use the gun on his own head. It is your God who has created this world so disgusting and horrible that it has twisted the hearts of even those who would claim his love. It is your God who laid upon you the misanthropic bile that seeps from your every pore and poisons your mind against your fellow human beings. It is your God who has so warped the very concepts of morality that he could kill, maim, and sell into slavery countless thousands of his creatures. You dare claim him to be the fountain of morality when it is beyond doubt that he has furthered his ends by rape, theft, murder, and terrorism.

What makes you think we give no thought to our own being? Why do you Christians refuse to understand that others struggle with concepts of existence and non-existence? It is you who can have no concept of negation of consciousness. How can you? Why do you attach value only to what will last for eternity? You deny meaning to a universe of fleeting and transitory events, objects and beings. Countless things happen to me that will never happen again but they are no less meaningful for it. Indeed such things enrich our lives in a myriad of ways.

You can�t put your religious views into a public discussion board and the deny our right to refute them. To do so is childish.

Yes, you are crude and the quality does not allow a grasp of your argument that does not include it.

JT

DarkBronzePlant

Aside from what we've seen here, it's a little tough to take seriously someone who has this in his/her profile:

HelenM

He's not a Christian - he doesn't believe God exists.

-FAITH ALONE-

When you say you were sitting there thinking...to me that appears you came to a sudden epiphony and started thinking in new territory. Trust me sweetheart- there are very few atheists whos processes of belief create new ideas under such cicumstances. My personal beliefs no matter what they may be- are based on hundreds of hours of thought, looked at from all angles, with nothing set into stone. Most Christians or people that say shoot yourself i couldnt care less which you are, snap judge new ideas and let emotions cloud clear thinking. Go kill yourself falls under this huh big fella? If someone doesnt believe their is a grand telos in the greater scheme of the universe that doesnt necessarily mean life is pointless for them, and I'd hazard a guess they'd much rather see an unthinking man such as yourself go bye-bye instead of losing their life.

People that believe their is a point to life are more deserving of it?sad sad sad

Infidelettante

How did I miss that? Sorry!

JT