Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 12-26-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

That may be generally true, but it is false for my hard drive.

Here's a snippet of my so far uncorrected translation of the French translation for the immediate context for the Testimonium:

Good stuff -- thank you.

Do I infer from this that the PO sections are online somewhere? I couldn't find it in Gallica and of course have no access to Google Books.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

spin · 12-26-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Cited by S.C.Carlson:

Josephus the Hebrew also speaks of it in his works that he wrote on the wars of the Jews: “In this period, there was a wise man named Jesus, whose life was perfect; his virtues were recognized; and many of the Jews and Gentiles were made his disciples. And Pilate condemned him to death on the cross; and those who have been made his disciples, preached his teaching. They affirmed that he appeared alive to them three days after his Passion. Perhaps he was the Messiah concerning which the Prophets had said marvels.” Here is the account of Josephus and his coreligionists concerning Our Lord the Christ, may he be glorified.

This is interesting because it wrongly allocates the TF to the Jewish War (and the AJ doesn't deal with the war at all).

spin

Ben C Smith · 12-26-2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

This is interesting because it wrongly allocates the TF to the Jewish War (and the AJ doesn't deal with the war at all).

The French translation took on an emendation at this point. Pines notes on page 8 that the manuscripts have fi sharr al-Yahud, On the Evil of the Jews. Vasiliev amended sharr to hurub, or wars. Pines prefers to amend sharr into tadbir, or governance, and gives several reasons.

At any rate, I do not know Arabic, but it seems the original of Agapius is not entirely clear as to which work is in view.

Ben.

hjalti · 12-26-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

This is interesting because it wrongly allocates the TF to the Jewish War (and the AJ doesn't deal with the war at all).

spin

Ken Olson says in his article Eusebius and the Testimonium flavianum (The Catholic Biblical Quarterly Apr 1999):

Quote:

The Testimonium itself is cited as a part of Josephus' work On the Evils of the Jews, a title which Pines has amended to On the Governance of the Jews.36

Evils = wars? Makes sense.

Malachi151 · 12-26-2006, 03:49 PM

I can't help but think that many people are copying Carlson's translation to hard drive, accurate or not

Thanks again

S.C.Carlson · 12-26-2006, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Do I infer from this that the PO sections are online somewhere? I couldn't find it in Gallica and of course have no access to Google Books.

I'm using the dead tree edition. Paper quality is lousy; too much acid :banghead:

S.C.Carlson · 12-26-2006, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

This is interesting because it wrongly allocates the TF to the Jewish War (and the AJ doesn't deal with the war at all).

Interesting indeed. Pines has proposed some emendations (see Ben's posts for that), but perhaps the War was meant. After all, Pseudo-Hegesippus, based extensive on the War also has a non-standard version of the Testimonium Flavianum, so maybe there were MSS of the War floating around with a version of the TF?

Stephen

Ben C Smith · 12-26-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Interesting indeed. Pines has proposed some emendations (see Ben's posts for that), but perhaps the War was meant. After all, Pseudo-Hegesippus, based extensive on the War also has a non-standard version of the Testimonium Flavianum, so maybe there were MSS of the War floating around with a version of the TF?

One of the automatic back-links to that page of yours is this page from Mondanité, apparently run by a certain professor Wang Weifan. It is mostly in Chinese, not one lone character of which I understand, but your name pops up a fair bit in Roman letters. I see Ken Olson and Roger Pearse, too. Wish I could read what the commenters are saying about the Testimonium....

One thing is certain: I think Chinese looks just great on a webpage.

Ben.

Malachi151 · 12-26-2006, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

I have it in Greek only from the Perseus site. I am unaware of it having been translated into English online.

Does it mention John the Baptist in the ToC?

Malachi151 · 12-26-2006, 08:30 PM

After going over this issue for several days now, here is my conclusion, and what I plan to write in summary:

1) I contend that the TF was probably inserted in full at a later time.

2) If not, then it was probably originally written by Josephus in a form very similar to that quoted by Jerome, with the "he was believed to be the Messiah".

In the case of #1, I would propose that the most likely scenario for insertion was the incorporation of a marginal note that was written by a Jew or Jewish Christian in the 2nd or 3rd century. Someone copying the text that had the marginal note then incorporated it mistakenly.

In the case of #2, if Josephus did write anything here, then the only evidence we have supports that he wrote basically what we have now, and if he wrote basically what we have now, then it was definitely based on Christian sources, and thus it's not a witness to the existence of Jesus, it's just a witness to the Christian story.

In either case, the TF doesn't provide support for the historical existence of JC.

Criticisms?

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12-26-2006, 03:49 PM	#35
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I can't help but think that many people are copying Carlson's translation to hard drive, accurate or not Thanks again

12-26-2006, 08:30 PM	#40
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	After going over this issue for several days now, here is my conclusion, and what I plan to write in summary: 1) I contend that the TF was probably inserted in full at a later time. 2) If not, then it was probably originally written by Josephus in a form very similar to that quoted by Jerome, with the "he was believed to be the Messiah". In the case of #1, I would propose that the most likely scenario for insertion was the incorporation of a marginal note that was written by a Jew or Jewish Christian in the 2nd or 3rd century. Someone copying the text that had the marginal note then incorporated it mistakenly. In the case of #2, if Josephus did write anything here, then the only evidence we have supports that he wrote basically what we have now, and if he wrote basically what we have now, then it was definitely based on Christian sources, and thus it's not a witness to the existence of Jesus, it's just a witness to the Christian story. In either case, the TF doesn't provide support for the historical existence of JC. Criticisms?

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