Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 09-15-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven8s

I have seen the enemy, it is myself.

That's quite an accomplishment.

Chili · 09-15-2004, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven8s

Ach!! Leave Eve out of this, she has been picked on long enough! Other then that you guys gon on and have at it!

A vivid Eve makes life interesting with never a dull moment.

seven8s · 09-16-2004, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

But Mary was not Eve and Christ was not Adam but at best can they be called second Eve and second Adam.

Okay, this is susan speaking (don't know how to divide the quote, hope this is it)..................Of the above I can agree. However, let us clarify that though Mary and Christ can be called the second Eve and Adam according to your view Adam would more correctly be called Jesus, aka Joseph because he did not become the Christ until ressurection. Correct?
Now the only reason I brought Adam & Eve into this was because you had stated that Joseph had to exhaust his religion. That was the first time I had ever heard that and it struck me as interesting............From there I made the connection that to do that he would have had to go all the way back to Adam because as you stated Joseph was a Jew (Ifind that Joseph/Jesus trade quite interesting). Adam is his religion, or the religion, culture he Joseph was born into.
Mary and Christ were called "man" and "woman" before the fall and they were man and woman because they had no personal identity of their own (no persona) and therefore felt no shame. Based on this can it be said that "the heart of Woman" is "the heart of Christ" and we have an icon that displays just that (a lot women kind of display this as well and that is why Mary is the embodyment of womanity).

Here is where we would begin to differ.............Adam had a name before the fall, it was Adam. Which means that, yes, Eve had no persona, hence felt no shame. According to my bible when the Lord God (I agree with that self awareness) walked into the garden and called out to him Adam answered stating he was naked, hence ashamed. One can only speak for oneself, and he did. Now if Adam was ashamed what was he ashamed of? I understand shame to be a feeling of being less then. What, or who did Adam feel less then? More important, why, and when. I propose the shame came before the fall. And yes I beieve that there is a quote that supports my claim. If you would like to know what it is ask me. :rolling:

Is the "heart of women the heart of Christ? Yes because Joseph/Jesus has risen, Christ. However the heart of Eve remains the heart to, towards Adam, and Tammy Wynett penned her song which has been the gender anthem since Eve. Which anthem becomes the salvation of man, to the destruction of woman. And according to the story becomes the need for Christ. Man saves himself (recognizes his worth, sets the record straight, in other words fesses up) and in the process rises woman to her true potential, worth, value, position, and status (an equal partner, notice the side, not the head the feet), ect.
Eve was the serpent and Adam was the ego consciousness of man after he consumed from the tree of Knowledge which is equal to just using his conscious mind (such as we all do for good reason). This, however made man "self aware" and this fact is made known by the voice that was heard in the garden "Adam where are you?" After this self awareness they felt naked and therefore could feel shame for the first time =fall of man. It has nothing to do with their physical nakedness but their dual identity. Of this dual identity man and woman became the cherub and the fiery revolving sword that were stationned at the gate to paradise and Adam and the serpent -- whom he called Eve-- became the two identities of the conscious mind.

Hmm, again Adam is named before the recording of the completion of the fall (at least in my version, NIV, TLB). I agree that Adam attained an ego consciousness after having eaten the fruit, but when did Adam first eat the fruit? Again, notice that Eve gets a name after she eats the fruit which suggests, (validly) that Adam got his name after he ate the fruit as well. And which is as I stated before what I call the completion of the fall. She must be named to continue the equality with Adam, and besides she did eat of the fruit of her own accord.
I do agree that "Adam where are you", is self awareness. It is attempt at rightousness (ego, striking at the heel of the problem) calling to the lost within. In todays language we ask of ourselves "what was I thinking" LOL
Eve the serpent? Hardly. Serpent has always been associated with snake, which has always been associated with the male appendage. Now Eve did of her own accord eat the fruit, but in her own words she states, IMHO, "he tricked me".

then :angry: , hence the emnity between male and female. And yes in pain and suffering she has as a result brought forth her children. And yes Adam has by the sweat of his brow tried to eek a living ever since. Sadly, to this day parents don't set very good examples.
I find it very interesting that Adam was placed in the garden first. Having been placed there he was informed about the two trees. There is no recording that Eve was told directly by God that she could not eat of TOK. In fact Adam is told before a suitable helper is even created. Yet Eve tells the snake that she cannot eat of the tree. How does she know that? Second hand knowledge? Why and how could she be so readily fooled by the snake? Because her desire was always to her husband. That was how and why she was created. "Stand by your man.........I can hear the reframe.......................LOL
Now, look at verse 3:17.............my bible speaks from the continuing perspective of the Lord God. In this verse Adam continues the lie. I never made the connection until I read your perspective about the Lord God in another post on another topic. Bingo. The first chapter of Genesis as you so rightly pointed out always speaks of God directly with no difining adjective. All that God creates He calls good, or excellent in every way (according to TLB). If Adam was made in the image of God and he is placed in the garden to be lord, then he is Lord God. And like most men in 3:17, how quickly the lord god forgets. Did you ever notice fella's that women have a memory like an elephant. She will haunt you with the details of every little word you said. It's the nature of women, now you know why! LOL She will remember til the day she dies and she will convict you on your sick bed with no mercy, until she sets herself free.
Notice that woman had been taken from man and Adam called his wife Eve. These four identities become the effective forces within the mind of man (males and females alike) with Adam being the name we are known by, such as Susan in your case.

Collective consciousness. I agree which presents another interesting analogy, how could Eve bear false witness against herself. Eve (sub-conscious) ate of the fruit at the urging of Adam (conscious ?) if we want to go there..........

To get back into Eden we must crucify our Adam (Jesus or Susan in your case), and this will leave your Mary Magdalene without a mate after you die, which would be obvious). In doing this man and woman will be set free (there called Barabbas with Mary being the real victor of this event because she is the one who drove Adam to the point in life where he was willing to be crucified by his own pharisees (first fruits of religion since indoctrination to make Mary a virgin = spiritual hymen = no bible studies allowed for they are the yeast of the pahrisees)).

Ooh, I hate that word crucify, soooooo violent. How about lay to rest. Throw out all but the first chapter of Genesis............ Ah, Mary Magdalene. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (even though I know that there remains controversy as to the true identy of said woman, however, traditionally she is the prostitute, caught in the act, and that must be addressed). And notice that no man came forward. Why? He knew he ate the apple first!! :rolling: Is she left without a mate? I don't believe so. Notice Joseph changed his name, (and I never thought of that so thank you, yes I give :thumbs: to your interpretation)Mary never did. She began and remained Mary, however, did the church? They called her Magdalene. I once heard a minister of the Prostent faith begrudgingly state that while the Catholic Church elevated Mary too high, the Protestant faith elevated her too low. I say they are both wrong..................one can't elevate her enough. God called her equal to Adam, excellant!! Now that her Christ is risen through her undying faithfullness she is never alone no more. Because he raised her to such status, by lowering his own.
The serpent must be raised but not to get into the promised land like Moses did. She must be raised after we enter the promised land to 'be' the converted slave that brings healing to our body. That way we would not need her on ambulances where she really does not belong.

There is no slave. Never was never will be. There is only Love. :love: I teach my children, you can demand that a child not eat chocolate, but you can never take the desire for chocolate out of the heart of the child, because it's not your desire. It is Mary's/Eve's desire to serve Christ/Adam. Adam knows not such selflessness and we've all paid the price since. Perhaps that's why Jesus called out "who touched me",. He knew not yet the understanding of such desire, such selflessness, such awe, such sinlessness.

Don't know if I'm right but it is a fabulous discussion................ :wave:

Chili · 09-16-2004, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven8s

Originally Posted by Chili in italics
But Mary was not Eve and Christ was not Adam but at best can they be called second Eve and second Adam.

Okay, this is susan speaking (don't know how to divide the quote, hope this is it)..................Of the above I can agree. However, let us clarify that though Mary and Christ can be called the second Eve and Adam according to your view Adam would more correctly be called Jesus, aka Joseph because he did not become the Christ until ressurection. Correct?

Exactly. Adam was the sin nature of Joseph that was called Jesus in the bible. Christ was the God nature that was reborn in the mind of Joseph when he was "beyond theology" which is expressed by given an account of himself at his place of birth which makes reference to his state of mind as a child. So now we have the dual nature God-man with God being reborn in the mind of an earthly hu-man being (the God nature is the heavenly nature).

Quote:

Now the only reason I brought Adam & Eve into this was because you had stated that Joseph had to exhaust his religion. That was the first time I had ever heard that and it struck me as interesting............From there I made the connection that to do that he would have had to go all the way back to Adam because as you stated Joseph was a Jew (Ifind that Joseph/Jesus trade quite interesting). Adam is his religion, or the religion, culture he Joseph was born into.

Exactly and he did that in the lineage of Luke. Notice that in Matthew the lineage of Joseph was recorded. Matthew, I should add, is the Jewish perspective or the religionist point of view. In Luke the lineage if Jesus is via the son and goes past the son of Abraham past the son of Adam and back to God --and that is exactly what you are looking for to make Mary non Jewish and sinless.

Notice also that it clearly states that it was supposed that Jesus was the son of Joseph but it does not say that Jesus actually was the son of Joseph. Jesus began his work when he was about thirty which would indicate that the Adamic nature of Joseph was about thirty years old while Joseph was 46 when he claimed that he would destroy the temple and raise it again in 3 days (Jn.2:20). If you now add 14 years to the 30 Joseph is 44 and a couple of years in Purgatory and Joseph was temple that took 46 years to built. It even suggests in John that they were speaking about his body etc. but I think they were speaking about his conscious mind that was the temple to be destroyed and raised again in three days.

Quote:

Mary and Christ were called "man" and "woman" before the fall and they were man and woman because they had no personal identity of their own (no persona) and therefore felt no shame. Based on this can it be said that "the heart of Woman" is "the heart of Christ" and we have an icon that displays just that (a lot women kind of display this as well and that is why Mary is the embodyment of womanity).

Here is where we would begin to differ.............Adam had a name before the fall, it was Adam. Which means that, yes, Eve had no persona, hence felt no shame. According to my bible when the Lord God (I agree with that self awareness) walked into the garden and called out to him Adam answered stating he was naked, hence ashamed. One can only speak for oneself, and he did. Now if Adam was ashamed what was he ashamed of? I understand shame to be a feeling of being less then. What, or who did Adam feel less then? More important, why, and when. I propose the shame came before the fall. And yes I beieve that there is a quote that supports my claim. If you would like to know what it is ask me.

No Adam was not called Adam until the "Adam where are you" in Gen.3 and if your bible says different you should burn it before it burns you!

In Gen.2 they were naked to wit and felt no shame. In Gen 3 they we no longer naked to wit and felt shame. The fall of man and woman was the development of the faculty of reason (in the myth) that created the ego and therefore they felt shame.

Shame is not always "less then" because here the second identity gave them (plural) a sense of self awareness (as in "I am so happy with myself" etc.).

Quote:

Is the "heart of women the heart of Christ? Yes because Joseph/Jesus has risen, Christ. However the heart of Eve remains the heart to, towards Adam, and Tammy Wynett penned her song which has been the gender anthem since Eve. Which anthem becomes the salvation of man, to the destruction of woman. And according to the story becomes the need for Christ. Man saves himself (recognizes his worth, sets the record straight, in other words fesses up) and in the process rises woman to her true potential, worth, value, position, and status (an equal partner, notice the side, not the head the feet), ect.

Vey nice! I would say that whereas at one time "the clothes make the man," now "the woman makes the man."

Sorry I must stop here, I have to go but will continue tomorrow. :wave:

seven8s · 09-17-2004, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Exactly. Adam was the sin nature of Joseph that was called Jesus in the bible. Christ was the God nature that was reborn in the mind of Joseph when he was "beyond theology" which is expressed by given an account of himself at his place of birth which makes reference to his state of mind as a child. So now we have the dual nature God-man with God being reborn in the mind of an earthly hu-man being (the God nature is the heavenly nature).

Exactly and he did that in the lineage of Luke. Notice that in Matthew the lineage of Joseph was recorded. Matthew, I should add, is the Jewish perspective or the religionist point of view. In Luke the lineage if Jesus is via the son and goes past the son of Abraham past the son of Adam and back to God --and that is exactly what you are looking for to make Mary non Jewish and sinless.

Notice also that it clearly states that it was supposed that Jesus was the son of Joseph but it does not say that Jesus actually was the son of Joseph. Jesus began his work when he was about thirty which would indicate that the Adamic nature of Joseph was about thirty years old while Joseph was 46 when he claimed that he would destroy the temple and raise it again in 3 days (Jn.2:20). If you now add 14 years to the 30 Joseph is 44 and a couple of years in Purgatory and Joseph was temple that took 46 years to built. It even suggests in John that they were speaking about his body etc. but I think they were speaking about his conscious mind that was the temple to be destroyed and raised again in three days.

No Adam was not called Adam until the "Adam where are you" in Gen.3 and if your bible says different you should burn it before it burns you!

In Gen.2 they were naked to wit and felt no shame. In Gen 3 they we no longer naked to wit and felt shame. The fall of man and woman was the development of the faculty of reason (in the myth) that created the ego and therefore they felt shame.

Shame is not always "less then" because here the second identity gave them (plural) a sense of self awareness (as in "I am so happy with myself" etc.).

Vey nice! I would say that whereas at one time "the clothes make the man," now "the woman makes the man."

Sorry I must stop here, I have to go but will continue tomorrow. :wave:

Okay, I get it......................Where as I am ready to throw out all but the 1st chapter, you are willing to continue with the 2nd chapter and find value there, correct? (the shame brought self-awareness, and depending upon how one consciously, reasonably looks at that it can elevate or debase).

Also, least I get burned, lol, what bible do you speak of as there are many out there and surely it would be nice to be on the same page.

Next, I stand corrected; I stated something to the effect of, where is there evidence that Eve had first knowledge that God had ordered them not to eat of the TOK? When in fact she does not refer to him as the Lord God, but God directly, singularly, when talking to the serpent (meaning she separates, has knowledge of the two, the split, separation)? Now that is the only time that God is not referred to as Lord God in 2. Hmm..................could be evidence that she is arguing with herself, and makes sense. Which means she is of two masters? How does she serve one without the other (limbo?), or without offending the other (purgatory?). And yet she is created by one to serve the other. Ah, yes the lie! Desire is a two way street, and it is the passion behind the knowledge/reasoning that ascertains the outcome. Interesting..............

Also, the garden is not mentioned in 1. Would you agree that the garden symbolizes self imposed exile, isolation? And Moses seeking the promised land shows the continuance of seeking the garden of eden which was always an illusion anyway.

Greger · 09-18-2004, 12:47 AM

A friend told me that Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist. And jews don't baptise, do they? What did John baptise Jesus into?

I haven't had time to research this, so I'm wondering, is there any validity to this claim?

seven8s · 09-18-2004, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greger

A friend told me that Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist. And jews don't baptise, do they? What did John baptise Jesus into?

I haven't had time to research this, so I'm wondering, is there any validity to this claim?

Yes there is vality to this.........they circumcise, ouch!..Look up circumscribe........but what you must remember and this is what Chili is trying to say...................it is all a story within a story. To quote Chile, "It is all metaphysics, or none of it is". Chili speaks in metaphysical poetry as does both the old and new testaments. This can be said to be, "the heaven (metaphysics a story which tells a story where in a deeper hidden mysterious meaning exist) or hell (go on have at it, exactly as it is rather then find the meaning, which is surely hell, laziness failure to develop true ego developement, knowledge, birthright)". Or in God's words, kiss my ass (the backwards part in Moses' writings). Hmm, now why would God say that? Go back to Genesis, as Chili has been trying to point out. Atheism is in IMHO a necessary exorcism to freedom, Freeman.

So to answer your question Jesus had to be baptized into the knowledege of religion in order to exorcise religion. So a good question would be to ask, "have you been baptized"? In other words it doesn't matter if Jesus was or wasn't.............are you? Again think metaphysically!

Notice that the very word atheist is a theist, which might be stated, the baby has not been thrown out with the bath water.....................follow my meaning and your question about John. To my current knowledge, Jesus is in fact the first Atheist. Now if an atheist doesn't like that explanation, and he wants to throw the baby out with the bath water that's okay, but he must them pick another name to call himself and I don't think infidel would be the correct word either. Infidel implies, unfaithful, yet -fidel is intrincently linked with fidelity and an atheist is being far from unfaithful. Can it be said that he is in fact, in fidelity?

Yes, but to what.................unless one correctly defines that answer he will experience hell on earth, or before death. Hell after death is a bastardized version of truth. Again, metaphysicl poetry. What is a bastard, fatherless, illigitimate. Meaning it does not come from God, but from man.

History must be understood, not to be repeated. Even an atheist could not argue with that. So what better way to understand history then to embrace it, not as truth, but Truth in/with understanding.

Ah, the first 3 chapters of Genesis is the most steamy, novel one could ever write. And wow! What a read! It has all that a best seller could want, sex, lies and video tapes (pun on recordings)? How about sex, lies, and a most fantastic, though foiled, murder plot. :rolling:

Yep Chili.................I am going back to my orignal, Eve did call Adam the snake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She was caught between a hard place and a rock. It was her submission that did her in.

It is atheism, in it's true meaning, that will set the world free, unless they throw the baby out with the bath water. And even that, the baby, is a pun, metaphysical poetry.

Yep Chili, I got it :thumbs: ........and I humbly thank you for the key :notworthy

susan

seven8s · 09-18-2004, 06:07 AM

And I just realized something else..................we go together you and I (ACIM). If it was her submission that did her in, it is her anger that did him in!

Heven and hell. I have know for some time that you can't have one if you fear the other :banghead:

Chili · 09-18-2004, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven8s

Freeman.

I like the capital F in Freeman.

Quote:

Notice that the very word atheist is a theist, which might be stated, the baby has not been thrown out with the bath water.....................follow my meaning and your question about John. To my current knowledge, Jesus is in fact the first Atheist.

Not yet. It was not until all doubt and all faith had been removed from Jesus that he was the first atheist. Thomas was doubt and he was the twin of Peter who was faith because faith cannot be conceived to exist without doubt not can doubt be conceived to exist without faith. So Peter and Thomas were twins (Jn.20:24) and when Thomas became a believer after all doubt was removed Peter was defrocked from faith through understanding. We see this when Peter went fishing naked in Jn.21:7 when he put on some clothes and dove headfirst into the celestial see (which is in his subconscious mind and that is on the other side of the [life-]boat.

So yes, only he who is totally free from faith and doubt is an atheist. In this sense are doubters just impoverished believers.

Quote:

.
Yep Chili, I got it :thumbs: ........and I humbly thank you for the key :notworthy

susan

Slow down Susan because there is a lot more to come. I personally think that the bible is just a painting with words instead of colors because all the words are used as metaphors. Eve was the serpent and this is made clear already just after the curse in Gen.3:15.

"I will put emnity between you and the woman and your offspring and hers. She will strike at your head and you will strike at his heel."

There are two serpents here. The first one is woman and the second one is Eve. Woman is the greater serpent of the subconscious mind and she will strike at the lesser serpent of the conscious mind who in her turn will stike at the heel of Adam to motivate him. In other words, Eve is the indirect cause of our desire because she herself is driven by the woman who is in charge of the Tree of Life and saw that the TOK was good for gaining food wisdom and beauty, hence the chain of command runs from woman through Eve to Adam.

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09-18-2004, 12:47 AM	#86
Greger Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 228	A friend told me that Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist. And jews don't baptise, do they? What did John baptise Jesus into? I haven't had time to research this, so I'm wondering, is there any validity to this claim?

09-18-2004, 06:07 AM	#88
seven8s Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 727	And I just realized something else..................we go together you and I (ACIM). If it was her submission that did her in, it is her anger that did him in! Heven and hell. I have know for some time that you can't have one if you fear the other :banghead:

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