Heathen Dawn

Hello, old friend!

Oh, doesn’t that make one feel guilty! In the Manichean conflict between being rational and level-headed and unbiased and objective, and going after inclinations of the heart, we must all choose the Good side, mustn’t we?

But that two-state picture doesn’t quite correspond to reality. To paraphrase an NT verse, there is none unbiased, no, not one, all have fallen short of the perfection of objective research. Not even the so-praised scientific method is the antidote. “Go where the evidence leads”, they say. Oh, very nice, but we choose what evidence to evaluate according to our biases, and that which we have chosen we evaluate according to our biases.

I say you can put your beliefs to the test just as well as anyone else. Your need for your beliefs just means you have a different filter than those who have no need of them. But make no mistake: we all have some kind of filter.

Whatever happens, don’t be afraid to do that journey. As Enya sings: pilgrim, in your journey you may travel far, for, pilgrim, it’s a long way to find out who you are.

Good luck.

espritch

You find comfort in your faith. The alcoholic finds comfort in his bottle. The alcoholic knows that his addiction is ultimately harmful to him, and I suspect that you know yours is as well. The difference is that the alcoholic is a minority in his society and those around him also recognize the harm his addiction causes and encourage him when he finally decided to give up the bottle. The man contemplating giving up his faith, on the other hand, finds himself surrounded by fellow addicts who offer not support for his decision but condemnation, since that choice threatens the comfort they take from their own addiction.

Ultimately, you must decide if the comfort and social approval you receive from your faith is more important to you than the honesty you find in exercising reason.

Do not think that I am making light of this choice. It was not an easy one for me and I live in a society that is far less condemning of the decision to choose reason over faith than the one you live in. I wish you well in this matter and hope you make the right decision.

Heathen Dawn

Man, I’m right now listening to DJ Tiësto, that’s, you know, house music, very loud music with drums and all that, and, you know, for all its loudness, I can’t hear the music, because, you know, the sounds of your hands patting yourself on your back are just, you know, deafening.

espritch

Baalthazaq posted this on a forum called Internet Infidels. I doubt he was expecting anyone to sugar coat their opinions. I make no apologies for telling him I think he would be better off without religion. As a thinking person, he is capable of deciding whether my opinion makes sense to him or not.

But don't worry. If you turn up the music just a little louder, I'm sure you can drown out that little voice from the rational part of your mind that suspects I'm right.

Heathen Dawn

It’s not your suggestion to him to leave religion that’s driven my reaction, it’s your patting yourself on the back, it’s the condescension. “Yo’ see, fo’ shizzle, I had my chops busted, an’ I fought it and got over it like a man. Now you can do the same, so don’ be a sissy.”. That what it sounds like.

I’m long past the days of thinking atheism is synonymous with rationality.

And hmmm…

Shades of “you know, deep down, that you’re a sinner standing guilty before God”.

TransverseWave

For what it's worth, I think I understand the problem. I would undoubtedly be happier if I believed -- not the Christianity I was raised with; I am pleased not to have to contemplate most of the world going to Hell -- but if I believed in the existence of a spiritual world and my dead relatives and pets surviving in a happy afterlife. I want this badly enough that I would have to have strong evidence before I could accept it as true, because if I try to accept it on weak evidence, I will immediately begin to doubt it because I know my wanting it to be true introduces a powerful bias into my evaluation of the evidence. I don't have strong evidence, so I'm a metaphysical naturalist by default.

I don't have a complete solution to this, but I have managed to work some substantial improvement. I have been engaged in a long-term project to evaluate and refine my philosophy, to try to see if I can reduce the amount of uncertainty I live with. This has led to my decisive rejection of all Abrahamic monotheism recently. I am not convinced that I know how the world does work, but I am pretty well convinced I know three ways it doesn't.

Christianity is an uncomfortable religion to doubt without abjuring -- it is unpleasant to think it far too likely to be untrue to practice it, but to still have enough emotional conviction to worry that it might be true, because of the threat of Hell. I deconverted under conditions of immense long-term stress that didn't lend themselves to truly systematic examination of the religion, and so I wasn't really satisfied with my rejection of it: there was lingering, unpleasant doubt.

Last year I reached a position where I could begin a systematic examination of Christianity. I have done a fair amount of reading, acquainted myself with Christian traditions other than the one I was raised in, and have examined the arguments both for and against Christianity. I have found those in favor to be weak, and some of those against it to be strong. I am still uncertain, but I no longer entertain any great fear of Hell: the uncertainty has become much more tolerable, and I am in an easier state of mind than I have been for decades. I am continuing to investigate, to try to discover more truth than I presently possess.

I would recommend making the most honest and systematic investigation that you can manage, and keeping it up until you reach a natural conclusion. You are likely either to find that faith is better supported than you thought it was, or that much that you took for granted as true is unsupported and unbelievable. And either belief or disbelief is more tolerable than wavering.

Not my best-written post, but I hope it helps.

espritch

Would you rather I had lied to him and told him "Loosing your religion is easy! You'll never miss it!"

My last remark in my previous post was rather flippant, and for that I apologize.

I do, however think that every person is capable of exercising critical thought and I'm fairly certain that it is always preferable to unquestioning faith.

Hedshaker

Reality has nothing to do with what you think HD. Reality is what it is and you want no part of that since it does not comply with your beliefs..... well tough!


Your God's and Goddess's can kiss my arse

Jobar

Baal, I'm sorry to hear your troubles are ganging up on you like that.

Is your religion providing you with any concrete physical help? Are any of your fellow believers lending a sympathetic ear, giving you food or shelter?

Whether or not you're getting RL help from other Muslims, the emotional anchor you have isn't to be dismissed lightly. I think that religous belief is held for emotional reasons, always.

Learning to live in the world without rose colored glasses and a fuzzy teddy bear is damned hard for most people. Even if you were interested in deeply questioning your religious beliefs, I'd say that's something that should be done when the river of life is running fairly smoothly, not when you're traversing rough water. IOW, if your religion is helping you deal with stress, don't question it until you can deal with the possible stress that *not* believing might cause you. These troubles too will pass away; then will be the time to give your beliefs over to rational analysis.

Chili

Good comment Jobar and I 'd say be careful that they don't take mortgage on your soul to tie you down for the rest of your life.