Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Barcode · 08-29-2003, 09:58 AM

I have never understood why a theist will make the assertion science can never prove religious " truths " ... because if you accept God created everything, he also created the very tools many of us are using to question his very existence.

Yet, if science does for instance " prove " something from The Bible it is quickly touted as verification of some of the things they believe in ....

Either accept the validity of science or do not ... don't pick and choose to fit in with your own personal bias and bend things to your own understanding.

Pyrrho · 08-29-2003, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fr.Andrew
We all need mythology as it is essential to our sense of identity. Theist mythology is a combination of fantasy, wishful thinking, a biased view of history...and a bit of slander thrown into the mix. From my experience, I present ten popular theist myths.

1) That God exists
2) That atheism says that there is no god
3) That the universe was designed
4) That there is life after death
5) That religious devotion makes people good and moral
6) That science and religion are compatible
7) That religion has been a plus for mankind
8) That Secular Humanism is a religion
9) That Adolf Hitler was not a religious man
10) That the religious persection involved in the Crusades and the Inquisition was "not that bad".

Like most words, "atheism" has more than one meaning. Here are some fairly standard definitions of the word "atheism":

a�the�ism
n.
1.
a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.

Notice it can mean the disbelief in the existence of any god (the original meaning, as "a" as a prefix is generally used to negate the word in question; thus, "atheism" would simply be "not theism"), or it can mean the denial of the existence of all gods. So, when someone says:

Quote:

2) That atheism says that there is no god

they are using a perfectly normal definition of the term. Your failure to realize that "atheism", like most other words, can have more than one meaning does not help you in your efforts to discredit theism.

Heathen Dawn · 08-29-2003, 10:07 AM

Science and religion aren't compatible. Science either falsifies religious tenets, or makes them redundant explanations.

Mr. Neutron · 08-29-2003, 10:09 AM

Quote:

No complaints about 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7. All are widely believed by Christians and form part of our identity. All are also true.

Demonstrate that 1, 3, and 4 are true.

You can do that, can't you?

Mr. Neutron · 08-29-2003, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChicken
I'm just curious how these can be "theist myths" when not all theists believe these things. Wouldn't they be better termed fundamentalist Christian myths?DC

I agree, except I would just say Christian myths without the fundamentalist qualifier. I mean, how many Christians don't believe in god?

beyelzu · 08-29-2003, 10:40 AM

18. all of us infidels are going to hell, and then we will be sorry.

Fr.Andrew · 08-29-2003, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Notice it can mean the disbelief in the existence of any god...

(Fr Andrew): No, it means without belief in the existence of god or gods...the dictionary notwithstanding.
"Theist" means someone with a belief in a god-- "atheist" means someone without a belief in a god...the same way that asymmetrical means without symmetry and amoral means without morals.
It has nothing to do with whether or not god actually exists.

Fr.Andrew · 08-29-2003, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChicken
I'm just curious how these can be "theist myths" when not all theists believe these things. Wouldn't they be better termed fundamentalist Christian myths?

(Fr Andrew): This was intended as a parody of Bede's foolishness. Of course not all theists believe all these myths...just as not all atheists believe all the items on Bede's list.

Fr.Andrew · 08-29-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
No complaints about 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7. All are widely believed by Christians and form part of our identity. All are also true.

(Fr Andrew): No...they're not. Sorry.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
6 is true

(Fr Andrew): No, #6 is not true. Religion is based on faith in the supernatural. Science is based on empirical observation of the natural world.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
5 and 9 are widely believed and untrue.

(Fr Andrew): One for two. Adolph Hitler was a religious man.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
10 tends to be heard from Catholics rather than Protestants

(Fr Andrew): Actually it tends to be heard most frequently from desperate, guilt-ridden Christian apologists of any denomination.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
8 I suppose someone must be saying this or you wouldn't have included it.

(Fr Andrew): All the time.

Jayjay · 08-29-2003, 02:00 PM

1) That God exists

Obviously.

2) That atheism says that there is no god

Someone else already questioned this, and I don't really buy it either. Some atheists do say that there's no God, and the distinction between saying that there's no god and not saying that there is a god reeks of pedantic wordplay. Besides, even if this point were correct, why is it ranked number two on the list? Lots of theists couldn't care less about atheism, or have even stranger ideas of what atheism is (e.g "believing in God but rejecting Him" or some other nonsense).

3) That the universe was designed

True, but the term "designed" seems to be more of a buzzword inspired by the Intelligent Design movement. I think most theists would prefer "created" or, if the focus is on purposefulness, "predestined".

4) That there is life after death
5) That religious devotion makes people good and moral

Agreed.

6) That science and religion are compatible

Reluctantly agreed. As someone pointed out, hard-core fundies think science is diametrically opposed to religion, but even they don't really want to say it out loud.

7) That religion has been a plus for mankind

Yup, especially the one to which the person making this claim happens to subscribe to.

8) That Secular Humanism is a religion

Isn't Humanism officially registered as a religion someplace? Lowercase secular humanism is not a religion though.

9) That Adolf Hitler was not a religious man
Ah, the obligatory Nazi reference. :boohoo:

10) That the religious persection involved in the Crusades and the Inquisition was "not that bad".

This is really just part of #7, isn't it?

08-29-2003, 02:00 PM	#20
Jayjay Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 6,261	Re: Ten Great Theist Myths 1) That God exists Obviously. 2) That atheism says that there is no god Someone else already questioned this, and I don't really buy it either. Some atheists do say that there's no God, and the distinction between saying that there's no god and not saying that there is a god reeks of pedantic wordplay. Besides, even if this point were correct, why is it ranked number two on the list? Lots of theists couldn't care less about atheism, or have even stranger ideas of what atheism is (e.g "believing in God but rejecting Him" or some other nonsense). 3) That the universe was designed True, but the term "designed" seems to be more of a buzzword inspired by the Intelligent Design movement. I think most theists would prefer "created" or, if the focus is on purposefulness, "predestined". 4) That there is life after death 5) That religious devotion makes people good and moral Agreed. 6) That science and religion are compatible Reluctantly agreed. As someone pointed out, hard-core fundies think science is diametrically opposed to religion, but even they don't really want to say it out loud. 7) That religion has been a plus for mankind Yup, especially the one to which the person making this claim happens to subscribe to. 8) That Secular Humanism is a religion Isn't Humanism officially registered as a religion someplace? Lowercase secular humanism is not a religion though. 9) That Adolf Hitler was not a religious man Ah, the obligatory Nazi reference. :boohoo: 10) That the religious persection involved in the Crusades and the Inquisition was "not that bad". This is really just part of #7, isn't it?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-29-2003, 09:58 AM	#11
Barcode Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portugal Posts: 633	I have never understood why a theist will make the assertion science can never prove religious " truths " ... because if you accept God created everything, he also created the very tools many of us are using to question his very existence. Yet, if science does for instance " prove " something from The Bible it is quickly touted as verification of some of the things they believe in .... Either accept the validity of science or do not ... don't pick and choose to fit in with your own personal bias and bend things to your own understanding.

08-29-2003, 10:07 AM	#13
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	Science and religion aren't compatible. Science either falsifies religious tenets, or makes them redundant explanations.

08-29-2003, 10:40 AM	#16
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	18. all of us infidels are going to hell, and then we will be sorry.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.