Sheshbazzar

The 'evidence' is in De vita contemplativa. Philo there reveals by his presentation, that he has never actually met these Theraputae.

There is such a thing as 'herd control', pressure applied in one place can start a stampede that moves the entire herd.

Philo was using De vita contemplativa as a religious propaganda 'prod' to stampede the Jews as a whole into the observing of a 'Festival' every seventh Sunday.
He may have moved a few, but overall the effort was a failure. (likely because at that same time the Jew-hating chrestians were laying claim to Sunday)

So. You have just confirmed that Philo composed writings intended to inspire Jews. If those, why not De vita contemplativa ???

My bet is that Philo could have used this piece of religious propaganda to inspire even his next door neighbor to begin keeping every seventh Sunday as a 'Festival'.

aa5874

Again, your claim is unsubstantiated. There is absolutely no statement by Philo that the Jews should be observing a "Festival" every seventh sunday.

In the History of the Jews by Josephus not one mention is made of Philo's Therapeutae even though Josephus mentioned Philo and the sects of the Jews.

Well, Josephus needed no inspiration from by Philo about the Essenes and neither did Pliny the Elder.

Josephus seemed to have known some Essenes by name and Pliny the Elder identified where they lived.

avi

Does that description--close proximity of the dwellings, and existence of sacred shrines in each home, not appear to be entirely compatible with eye-witness observation? nota bene: "In that place", i.e. the monastery, and not their homes, which are "very plain", (i.e. simple accommodations for sleeping, to keep out the cold, and heat), NOT a place to study "laws", to increase their "knowledge".

I have not yet read through the vast quantity of posts on this thread, but, at the risk of repeating others' comments, it would appear to me, at least, that Philo's De Vita Contemplativa had no connection to Jewish anything. Please offer quotes from the text, to support your contention.

I am looking for the evidence that they were Jewish, though, as aa5874 has noted a couple of times in the last couple of days' posts, I find nothing in the text identifying them as Jewish.

The brevity of spin's comment yesterday, about their Jewishness, issued without a link or quote from the text, was particularly unpersuasive.

I remember witnessing the Jews on their way to synagogue to pray, walking against the automobile traffic (no sidewalks in those days), every Saturday morning, but I never saw them bow down, or kneel, or lay down, or whatever, at sunrise and sunset. Is that an old Jewish habit? How does anyone know which texts these "writings of ancient men" include? Why not texts from Zarathustra? Weren't the Persians in Egypt, before the Greeks? Why couldn't the "writings of ancient men", refer to religions other than Judaism? When the therapeutae "arrange" their musical accompanyment to devotional prayer (i.e. "psalms and hymns to God") in "every kind of metre and melody imaginable", does Philo here (as eyewitness?) imply that these "psalms and hymns" are melodies unfamiliar to the Jewish liturgical conventions? Are they unfamiliar, then, because their songs and hymns are not part of the Jewish ceremonies, if not, why mention this behavior? Was there an orthodoxy, in those days, about what songs or hymns were "legal", or proper, for Jews to follow? Could there have been a Jewish sect that sang songs, while other Jewish sects kept total silence, and still others sang a completely different, more constrained kind of melody?

Duvduv

That excerpt alone is evidence enough for me that the original author under the name of Philo (well-protected by church archives) was not describing "Jews" and was not a Jew and the author did not know who he was talking about. I wonder why people are so loyal to "Philo" as an authentic text compared to so many others..........

stephan huller

not surprising as the form of Judaism you practice is only as old as the second century. maybe as late as the third century

stephan huller

There are far more interesting questions to ask about the Therapeutae instead of whether or not they were Jewish. Two come to mind:

1. Why is it that in ALL Judeo-Christian traditions the late second, early third century marks a 'restart' or a convergence of sectarian groups into a new ecumenical faith? In other words, Irenaeus within Christianity, Samaritan orthodoxy and rabbinic Judaism each representing a fusion of disparate theologies into a new orthodoxy.

2. Is the Christian celebration of Lent related to the 50 day calendar of the Therapeutae? In other words, there was a lot of variation in a period which led up to the Resurrection, if that original number of days was 50 it would be a powerful argument that Christianity originally used the same 364 day calendar of the Therapeutae and various early Jewish sectarians. For instance Clement of Alexandria - from memory in the Paschal Chronicle - somehow counts the Omer into the celebration of the Passion (which is the beginning of Pentecost) - i.e. if Christians were using the Omer as the beginning of the fifty and the addition to the previous 49 (and there was something like a 'Lent' which preceded this counter.

Sheshbazzar

Hello avi. Yes it has been a long thread, but glad you joined us and pasted this excerpt.
A lot depends on how one parses its quite dense content.

I'll highlight it a bit differently than you did;
A few of the of things I would have you note here avi,

1. Plain minimal houses for shelter.

2. These house were built well separated to provide -solitude- to their occupants.

3. in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place, and the monastery. (the 'monastery' is in the 'house'.)

4. in which they retire by themselves and perform all the mysteries of a holy life,

5. bringing in nothing, neither meat, nor drink,...

6. but studying in that place the laws and the sacred oracles of God enunciated by the holy prophets, and hymns, and psalms,

BUT this section does not end Philo's description of these house/monasteries.
He goes on further.

7. (30) Therefore, during six days, each of these individuals, retiring into solitude by himself, philosophises by himself

8. in one of the places called 'monasteries',

9. never going outside the threshold of the outer court, and indeed never even looking out.

(end description of the house/monastery)

But on the seventh day they all come together as if to meet in a sacred assembly,

10. (32) And this common holy place to which they all come together on the seventh day.....(a large communal meeting hall is then described)


11. (40) I wish also to speak of their common assemblies,.... (note not 'our' but 'their')

(it now takes him a long-winded time to get to it)

(81) .....which lies thus in the holy outer Temple; (the communal gathering place were food and water, and eating WAS allowed and done)

Its not incompatible, but totally lacking in any first person personal pronouns, it reads much more like a place only heard about, or an imagined place, than one that Philo had ever actually visited and experienced first-hand.

The 'monasteries' (plural) were inside of each of these plain 'houses';

(25) 'in which they retire by themselves and perform all the mysteries of a holy life.

bringing in nothing, neither meat, nor drink, nor anything else which is indispensable towards supplying the necessities of the body,

but studying in that place (isolated- house/monastery) the laws and the sacred oracles of God enunciated by the holy prophets, and hymns, and psalms,

(30)..during six days, each of these individuals, retiring into solitude by himself, philosophises by himself

in one of the places called 'monasteries' (plural)

This -these- house/monasteies were NOT a place for public assemby or worship. It was a isolated monks cell.

These house/monasteries were also where they individually -secluded- themselves for prolonged fasting;

(35) "and some men, ....... can endure to cherish a recollection of their food for three days without even tasting it,
and some men are so delighted................ that they can even hold out twice as great a length of time,
and will scarcely at the end of six days taste even necessary food.'

These house/monasteries were NOT family living quarters, they were Solitary-confinement monks cells for study, contemplation, and self-imposed starvation.

The big deal was to starve themseves in these solitary-confinement 'monastaries' for up to six days, so they could 'feast' on bread and water on the seventh.

I really don't care which group wants to claim them. They were a nutzo cult no matter what men call them.

Toto

You or your alter ego tanya have asked for this before, and it has been provided. Search the thread for Moses.

Duvduv

Now we're getting somewhere......Some other poster(s) claimed that haredi Jews only have orthodox Judaism for a couple of hundred years.
After analyzing the criticisms of Judaism by the Samaritans in their writings, and a few others of ancient Greeks, we might be able to push your date even further back!
Check the anthologies by Louis Feldman.......

spin

Perhaps we should point out that the authentic Judaism died with the fall of the temple. The temple is gone. The menorah is gone. The beni Tsaduq are gone. The `olah is gone. You can't pay your half-sheqel. I mean if we want to be so strict.


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