Toto

What is so improbable about the existence of a church? Or the formation of the canon described here? The epistles were probably first gathered by Marcion, who was a heretic and not someone Justin would have cited with enthusiasm. Theories on the formation of the Pauline collection are described here

Duvduv

The issue isn't "churches" but rather "the Church."
As far as Marcion is concerned, I don't believe the so-called scenario that he "collected" the epistles. It makes no logical sense. He collected them from WHERE? He altered them because some central authority had filled ALL OF THEM as a collection with Judaic references? What central authority before his time?
No one discussed a "canon" before Athanasius of Alexandria. But really the firm collection or canon existed much later. The scenario just doesn't add up.
Same thing for Origen, about who we have to rely, of course, on good old Eusebius.

Toto

There wasn't one church. That's why there was so much dispute over the correct doctrine - there was no one authority to settle the matter.

Read the article - perhaps he wrote them himself. Perhaps someone else wrote them, and several people altered them.

I'm not sure what you are looking for. You can look at many religious or political movements in current history, and you see the same sort of disputes, attempts to rewrite history, arguments over events and interpretations.

Duvduv

The benefit of discussing these matters is in order to attempt to reconstruct what happened in the emergence of Christianity. That's what I am looking at.

aa5874

It is MOST unlikely that Marcion would have used the Pauline writings based on the Abundance of evidence.

1. Justin Martyr, an Aplogetic Source, claimed Marcion who was ALIVE did preach ANOTHER God and ANOTHER Son, not Jesus Christ.

2. The author of "Against Heresies" 2.22 did NOT know of PAUL, the Pauline writings and that Paul was supposed to have preached Christ crucified Before the reign of Claudius.

3. Justin Martyr did NOT mention Paul, any Pauline writings, or PAULINE Churches.

4. Justin Martyr claimed it was 12 illiterate disciples from Jerusalem that preached the Gospel to every race of men.

5. Hippolytus, an Apologetic Source, claimed Marcion did NOT use the Pauline writings but USED the Doctrine of Empedocles.

6. Aristides claimed it was the 12 disciples that preached the Gospel throughout the world.

7. Ephraim, an Apologetic source, referred to Marcion's God as the STRANGER and did NOT mention the Pauline writings.

8. Origen, an Apologetic source, claimed it was the Marcionites that mutilated the Gospels.

9. Marcion would NOT need 100 year old Epistles which should have been in the POSSESSION of EACH Church all over the Roman Empire.

10. No apologetic source in the 4th century attributed "Against Marcion" to Tertullian.


The abundance of evidence from antiquity suggests that it is MOST IMPROBABLE Marcion used or knew of the Pauline writings.

Duvduv

Plus Justin never mentions anything aboutMarcion"s heresies against any texts even though they lived at the same time!

aa5874

Plus, the Marcionites used to RIDICULE Justin. Up to the mid 2nd century, It would appear people who believe the Jesus story was the LAUGHING stock, not the orthodox.

"First Apology" 200 years later, Ephraim the Syrian, would make the same claim like Justin about the Marcionites that they did NOT consider the Lord the Maker of heaven and earth. See "Against Marcion" 3 attributed to Ephraim.

It makes ZERO sense for Marcion to have USED the same Gospels and Pauline Epistles WHILE he and his followers RIDICULED Justin who appeared to believe Jesus was BORN of a woman and a Holy Ghost.

Duvduv

Well, aa5874, I guess we'll never make any headway in terms of reconstructing the events surrounding the writing of the various gospels and epistles.

If they were all written to create a new religion in the time of Constantine, "they" did a pretty lousy job of ensuring that all the texts they were writing corresponded to one another. Galatians doesn't correspond to GMatthew, and Hebrews doesn't correspond to GJohn. Acts doesn't correspond to Corinthians and Mark doesn't correspond to Ephesians, etc. etc. etc.All written by a Constantine Committee to Create an Imperial Religion???!

aa5874

I really don't know what you will make but I have IDENTIFIED some writings that are most likely historically bogus, WHOLLY or in part, with FAKE or multiple authors.

1. Writings under the name of Paul.

2. Writings under the name of Ignatius.

3. Writings under the name of Clement of Rome.

4. Writings under the name of Irenaeus.

5. Writings under the name of Tertullian.

6. Writings under the name of Eusebius.


Well, based on a writing of Julian the Emperor, Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 appears to have been INTERPOLATED AFTER Constantine the Emperor and Eusebius were ALREADY dead.

Duvduv

Fine, then let's now discuss WHO then DID write them all in the fourth century and WHY. they didn't correspond to one other .