Doug Shaver

I've read one or two good arguments and a few really stupid arguments against Paul's historicity. Even the good ones are unpersuasive, in my judgment.

bacht

If Paul was real, then my questions are

- when was he active (mid-1st C?)
- what was he doing (evangelizing?)
- what did he write (seven authentic epistles?)
- what was his message (faith vs works? Parousia?)
- what changes were made to his writings (additions/emendations to authentic epistles?)
- what relation did he have with other NT persons or writings (Acts vs epistles, pastorals?)

hefdaddy42

This, exactly.

spamandham

I'm reading into this an a priori bias toward a historical Paul. Is it the letters attributed to him you find compelling?

How do the known pseudepigrapha factor in to that presumption?

IMHO, the strength of argument necessary to throw doubt on a historical Paul is not much.

maryhelena

While the birth of Josephus is given as 37 CE - hence after the death of the gospel Jesus - the fact remains that his father was supposedly a prominent man in Jerusalem - a man who most likely would have been been aware of things that went on in that city. However, no record of him passing on what could well have been an eye witness account of the crucifixion, for instance. At the very least the father of Josephus would surely have heard the local gossip of the miracle worker...

Josephus Life:

spamandham

Perhaps Josephus *did* record Jesus. There are numerous Jesuses recorded by Josephus, one or more of these might be the basis of the Gospel Jesus. Several of them sound kind of like the Gospel Jesus, leaving the possibility open that the Gospel Jesus is a composite character constructed at least in part from the works of Josephus.

maryhelena

Quite, I've no problem with any of that......
I was just attempting to make a little point re the possibility that the father of Josephus could well have been a man on the spot sort of thing - and, therefore, Josephus could have been very close to a potential eye witness.....(anyway I'm questioning Josephus as historical so its only a sideline sort of point.......)

Doug Shaver

My bias is toward parsimony, and it isn't a priori. It is a result of careful study.

My opinion on this matter is not a result of any compulsion. I have searched for the available relevant evidence. I doubt that I've managed to find all of it, but what I have found seems to be a substantial fraction of what is easily accessible by lay people. I have given that evidence careful consideration, and at this point of my study, a historical Paul seems to be the most parsimonious explanation for that body of evidence.

The letters obviously are the major evidence, but they aren't all the evidence.

They don't factor into any of my presumptions. They factor into my inferences.

I think the pseudepigrapha imply that some Christians of the second century, or possibly early first century, thought the name of Paul was sufficiently authoritative that it would be in their best interest to pretend to be him.

If there are arguments for and against any proposition, I think the stronger argument ought to prevail. In effect, then, the threshold is set by whichever is the weaker argument.

Doug Shaver

Sometime before the First Jewish War.

He was writing. I'm not sure who he thought of as his intended readership.

He probably did some preaching as well.

Since he called his message the "good news," then evangelizing is as good as a term as any to describe his activity.

For the time being, I'm accepting the scholarly consensus regarding his authorship of seven of the epistles attributed to him, but without committing myself as to the extent of redactions or interpolations -- except that I'm quite sure he didn't write everything that is now in them.

I haven't figured that out exactly, except that it was not about a charismatic Jewish preacher known as Jesus of Nazareth. I suspect it was something along the lines of what Doherty says it was.

Particular changes? Aside from I Thess. 2:14-16, I'm not sure. I haven't studied the subject in sufficient depth to have a defensible opinion.

The only NT persons he knew were the ones he said he was acquainted with.

I'm not sure what you mean by his relationship to other writings. No other NT document existed during his lifetime.

DCHindley

Those are exactly the questions folks should be asking. Maybe we should ask them in a different order, seeing that different answers for one could significantly affect the answers to the next question, and so on.

This would be based on clues that are internal to the letters, clues that might point to otherwise known historical events. If limited to events recorded outside of the NT books, these would be:

1) The rant against unveiled women in 1 Cor 11:6 - which I identify with the visit of Queen Helena of Adiabene to Jerusalem to discharge a nazirite vow which would involve shaving her head, ca 35-50 CE = Josephus

2) - The "man of lawlessness" of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - which I would attribute to emperor Gaius' (Caligula) desire to erect a statue of Zeus in his own image in the temple of Jerusalem, which was opposed by the Legate of Syria, Petronius, ca 39-40 CE = Josephus & Philo

How critics have dated the events relayed in the Pauline letters varies widely. Generally, based on Acts alone, the individual Pauline letters would have been written as follows:
1 Thes & 2 Thes ca 50-51 CE.
Gal ca 51-52 CE.
1 Cor ca 52-53 CE.
Romans, 1 Tim, 2 Cor ca 56 CE.
Phm, Col, 2 Tim, Eph, Phil ca 61-63 CE.
Titus doesn't fit anywhere into the events related in Acts

If one was to compare the letters to the events as portrayed in Acts of the Apostles, we have:

1) Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it; 14 and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers." = ACT 7:58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. 8:1 And Saul was consenting to his death. And on that day a great persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the region of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. ... 3 But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison. ... 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

2) GAL 1:15 But when it pleased God ... 16a to reveal 16c to me that I might declare <his> 16e "good news" among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, (Possibly same as 2 COR 12:2a I know a man ... 2c who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in (the) body I do not know, or outside of (the) body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise --whether in (the) body or apart from (the) body I do not know, God knows-- 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter) = ACT 9:3 Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. 4 And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5 And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; 6 but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do." 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul arose from the ground; and when his eyes were opened, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank. 10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." 11 And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight." 13 But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name." 15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name." 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, 19a and took food and was strengthened. 19b For several days he was with the disciples at Damascus.

3) GAL 1:17a nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia = Possibly ACTS 9:20 And in the synagogues [of Arabia?] immediately he proclaimed Jesus, saying, "He is the Son of God." 21 And all who heard him were amazed, and said, "Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called on this name? And he has come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests."

4) GAL 1:17b and again I returned to Damascus = ACT 9:22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus ...

5) 2 COR 11:32 At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to seize me, 33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands = ACT 9:23 When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him, 24 but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night, to kill him; 25 but his disciples took him by night and let him down over the wall, lowering him in a basket.

6) GAL 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. 19a But I saw none of the other apostles except James ... . 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) = ACT 9:26 And when he had come to Jerusalem he attempted to join the disciples; and they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. 28 So he went in and out among them at Jerusalem,

7) GAL 1:21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22a And I was still not known by sight to the churches ... 22c in Judea; 23 they only heard it said, "He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." 24 And they glorified God because of me = ACT 9:29 preaching boldly in the name of the Lord. And he spoke and disputed against the Hellenists; but they were seeking to kill him. 30 And when the brethren knew it, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him off to Tarsus.

8) GAL 2:1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up by revelation*; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the good news which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek, 4a (in spite of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have ... 4c in order to bring us into bondage, 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the good news might be preserved for you) = ACT 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, reporting the conversion of the Gentiles, and they gave great joy to all the brethren. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses." 6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." 12 And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

8) GAL 2:6 And from those who were reputed to be something (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)--those, I say, who were of repute added nothing to me; 7a but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the good news to the uncircumcised, ... 9 and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised; 10 only they would have us remember the Poor, which very thing I was eager to do. = ACT 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written, 16 'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, 17 that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, 18 says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.' 19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood. ACT 15:21 For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues." 22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting. 24 Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

9) GAL 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the good news, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?" = Possibly ACT 14:26 and from there they sailed to Antioch, where they had been commended to the grace of God for the work which they had fulfilled. 27 And when they arrived, they gathered the church together and declared all that God had done with them, and how he had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles. 28 And they remained no little time with the disciples. ACT 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question

10) 2 COR 11:24c Three times I have been shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been adrift at sea; = ACT 27:6 There the centurion found a ship of Alexandria sailing for Italy, and put us on board. ... 27:41 But striking a shoal they ran the vessel aground; the bow stuck and remained immovable, and the stern was broken up by the surf. 42 The soldiers' plan was to kill the prisoners, lest any should swim away and escape; 43 but the centurion, wishing to save Paul, kept them from carrying out their purpose. He ordered those who could swim to throw themselves overboard first and make for the land, 44 and the rest on planks or on pieces of the ship. And so it was that all escaped to land.

11) 2 COR 11:32 At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to seize me,33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands. = ACT 9:23 When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him, 24 but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night, to kill him; 25 but his disciples took him by night and let him down over the wall, lowering him in a basket.

This question is loaded, as we Westerners have a propensity to interpret the activities described in his letters as "missionary" and this sems to be how the author of Acts understood them. If Acts is taken out of the equation, what set of conditions could explain how the man travels widely about the Mediterranean, and who is he dealing with (their social class(es), their relationship with Judaism, etc)?

See below about changes.

The only coherently presented message in any of the letters is that gentiles can include themselves among the "seed of Abraham" that will inherit the land of Caanan as long as they have faith like that whioch Abraham did.The Christ theology is all rag-tag and tacked onto these arguments about faithful gentiles in a way that makes no coherent case.

Bingo - the Christ theology was added to letters that originally dealt with the justification before God of faithful gentiles. The faithful gentile message is explicitly stated in the letters to cities and regions and implied in the pastorals, so I am inclined to see most if not all of them as authentic.

This will depend a bit on whether you accept the GNT of Nestle/Aland or the Majority/Byzantine text as your basis. Basically, except for Jesus, the persons mentioned in the letters also mentioned in Acts or the Gospels are James, John, Cephas (only on the basis of John 1:42), Peter (questionable in GNT whether this name has entered the text of Galatians as a scribal gloss or interpolation), Barnabas, Timothy, and maybe Silvanus (if this be same as Silas in Acts). If I missed anybody I am sure someone here will drub me quickly.

DCH (home sick today)