sotto voce

Can the point be reached without resort to personal pronouns?

Duvduv

Such that attributing the dispute to succession developed after the dispute already existed?

Duvduv

I had a long exchange with a Sunni Muslim who explained to me that the opposition of Sunni Muslims to Shiism is simply that Shiism did NOT develop at the time of the succession to Mohammed at all, and in fact emerged only about 700 years ago through the Saffayids after the breakdown of the caliphate.

He told me that all of the claims of Shia Islam about the 12 Imams, Ali, etc. emerge from that time, and thus the usual view of the emergence of Shia Islam which is accepted by western scholars as well is entirely a myth.

Unfortunately I could not make any headway with him about the contradictions between stories in the Quran and ones in the Torah and New Testament. Indeed, it mystifies me why the "editors" of the Quran text did not check to ensure that the contradictions of persons and stories did not exist.

It is interesting to note that the Jesus of the Quran is not the Messiah for the gentiles but merely a prophet messiah to the Jews alone. On the one hand the Quran rejects the trinity or divinity of Jesus which is a strike against official orthodoxy of the time, but on the other does not explicitly condemn Pauline teachings or teachings of the gospel to the gentiles, and presents a view of Jesus and his birth and his role that does not resemble anything in the NT or other known texts, while John the Baptist (Yahya) is presented as the precursor of Jesus and has retained an important role.

Duvduv

Some key contradictions in the Quran:

1) Haman is presented nine times as the advisor of Pharoah and is even asked to build a tower to heaven.

2) The reference to people lapping water with their hands refers to events involving Saul (Talut) rather than Gideon as in the Book of Judges.

3) Mary/Miriam, the mother of Jesus is the daughter or descendant of Amram and the sister of Aaron. There is no mention of Joseph in her life, Bethlehem or anything else from the NT.

Blui

The basis for the split is indeed on the successor of muhammad, ie the 'ruler' of the muslim and islamic community after his death.

However of course, as time goes by, more and more differences emerge between the two, and these differences also are sources of conflict between the two, in theological and doctrine they are very similar, but there are definite differences, which when one looks at the other, would regard as a type of heresy.

In general, the muslim(s) responsible for the quran show not a great knowledge of Judaism or Christianity, they do frequently make mistakes, such as thinking that the trinity doctrine of cathocilism encompasses Mary as one of the three, and that Ezra in Judaism was also a prophet.

Seemingly Sabian Christians.

Duvduv

It is truly amazing that the knowledge of Jewish and Christian texts was so limited that these mistakes went totally unnoticed. Regardless of the type of Christianity and Judaism that existed where the authors were located in Arabia, it is hard to believe that these errors went unnoticed. These are not obscure details that could be easily overlooked, but basic and well-known subjects.
Presumably in interfaith dialogue the Muslim scholars had to confront these matters constantly and not just in the last 200 years or so......

Blui

From my impression from the Islam's tales, they were more concerned with impressing on already existing muslims the 'blasphemy' of the other religions, to coincide that theirs is the true un-corrupted word of God.

To be blunt, the Sunnah of Muhammad is rife with not very honest or intellectual applications of 'divine messages from God', a vast amount of the quranic passes were, according to Islamic tales, done out of sheer convenience for Muhammad for trivial matters (ie oh you say this is improper my fellow Muslims? God just gave me a divine message saying it is ok).

I am not even kidding.

It is interesting whether converted Jews or Christians during the more intellectual times of Arabic-islamic civilisation (lets say the so-called golden age) actually found out and challenged this.

Muslims at those times really did challenge Islam in what may be considered surprising ways, many arabs inherited the rationalism of the Greeks, and sought to apply it to Islam, and frequently challenged Islam.

I have read, for instance, some lamenting the plight of women in islam, even back then, some challenging the logic of much of the god-messages, arabs even created satirical qurans against the official one.

Of course, these were met with quite fierce violence, eventually, the rulers of Islam had enough had clamped down on free-thought, called the 'closing of the gates of itjihad' by some, arabs lost their greek-inherited rationalism, and have been stuck in torpor ever since.

Duvduv

If the Quran's Jesus was a messenger only for the Jews and was based on the verses below, then presumably the author(s) of the Quran ought to have known the rest of the canonical gospel material:

Matthew 10:5-6
"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" [2]

Matthew 15:22-24
"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" [3]

Luke 19:9-10
"And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" [4]

Matthew 1:21
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins" [5]

Mark 6:4
"But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house" [6]

Huon

There are two different Miriam : Miriam, the sister of Aaron, and another Miriam (without any family link, IIRC) the mother of Jesus. No contradiction, only imprecision.

Duvduv

In one verse when Mary returns with her baby she is called Mary, the sister of Aaron - Maryam uchta HHarun. She is also called elsewhere the daughter of Amram - Imran.