Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Biff the unclean · 12-17-2005, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Is fulfilled prophecy not good evidence for the existence of God?

To me it seems to only be evidence of the utter stupidity of certain people.

Because if it is good evidence then we must consider that the Oracle at Delphi was constantly turning out prophecy, which when interperted correctly (the very same type of interpertation that you are most fond of) were all correct, every last one. And she was doing it for over a thousand years ... so that means that Apollo exists.

John A. Broussard · 12-17-2005, 09:59 PM

I posted this earlier, but you seem to have overlooked it:

Thanks for the reply, though you answered only one of the questions I asked, namely:

"How do you account for the fact that many, many people are not healed after praying?"

And your answer just says there's no guarantee the prayer will work because god knows best

Care to try this one next?:

"How do you account for the fact that many, many people with a missing limb know that praying won't heal them and so they don't pray?"

Alf · 12-17-2005, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Prayer is not machinery, John...

"Even if all the things that people prayed for happened -- which they do not -- this would not prove what Christians mean by the efficacy of prayer. For prayer is request. The essence of request, as distinct from compulsion, is that it may or may not be granted. And if an infinitely wise Being listens to the requests of finite and foolish creatures, of course He will sometimes grant and sometimes refuse them. Invariable "success" in prayer would not prove the Christian doctrine at all. It would prove something more like magic -- a power in certain human beings to control, or compel, the course of nature." (C.S. Lewis)

Regards,
Lee

So your claim is not verifiable or falsifiable.

Yawn.

Alf

lee_merrill · 12-19-2005, 10:32 AM

Hi everyone,

Quote:

John B.: By now you may have become aware that it's difficult to convince some people that a prophesy has been "fulfilled", especially when it's a vague, amorphous, Nostrodamian type which you seem to love.

Erm, how is it that people know (and insist!) that they have clearly been refuted, then?

But “Babylon will never be rebuilt or reinhabited�? is not so unclear, nor is “There will always be Jewish people.�?

Quote:

Biff: then we must consider that the Oracle at Delphi was constantly turning out prophecy, which when interperted correctly (the very same type of interpertation that you are most fond of) were all correct, every last one.

Which prophecies, specifically, may I ask? Speaking of vague prophecies…

Quote:

John B.: How do you account for the fact that many, many people with a missing limb know that praying won't heal them and so they don't pray?

But I believe God can do this, and he will:

Isaiah 35:6 Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.

Quote:

�?Invariable 'success' in prayer would not prove the Christian doctrine at all. It would prove something more like magic -- a power in certain human beings to control, or compel, the course of nature." (C.S. Lewis)

Alf: So your claim is not verifiable or falsifiable.

It’s verifiable insofar as what is prayed for is very improbable naturally, and if there comes an answer, such as in healing.

Regards,
Lee

John A. Broussard · 12-19-2005, 06:12 PM

Third posting:

I posted this earlier, but you seem to have overlooked it:

Thanks for the reply, though you answered only one of the questions I asked, namely:

"How do you account for the fact that many, many people are not healed after praying?"

And your answer just says there's no guarantee the prayer will work because god knows best

Care to try this one next?:

"How do you account for the fact that many, many people with a missing limb know that praying won't heal them and so they don't pray?"

Are you really claiming that a lame person is one who has a missing leg.

I can't believe that. Want to try again?

Jack the Bodiless · 12-20-2005, 06:28 AM

Quote:

All in accordinance with natural laws already observed. Now supernatural entities on the other hand...

Are also observed! As in fulfilled prophecy.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

What does that do by way of disproving fulfilled prophecy, though?

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Well, a real, testable, falsifiable prediction does have metaphysical implications, does it not? And is quite perceptible.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Well, how is my comment not to the point? There is a huge leap in abiogenesis, and also good evidence for a supernatural agent, in fulfilled prophecy, thus lessening the ID gap.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Jack: Lee, why are you still dragging the FAILED Babylon prophecy around...

Um, it's not rebuilt.

Babylon was not destroyed when it was prophesied to be, and it was inhabited when it was not supposed to be. As you know.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

and the FAILED "Egypt will never rule other nations" prophecy

They actually haven't...

They actually have.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

and the UNPROVEN "there will always be Jewish people"

What do you mean, unproven? Of course, a forever prophecy cannot ever be said to be finally fulfilled, but then it is falsifiable, and Hitler tried, and he also failed.

There is nothing remotely implausible or miraculous about the survival of the Jewish people thus far, and they were never in danger of worldwide extermination by Hitler.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

If we SHOULD believe in your God because of "fulfilled prophecies", why can't you present even ONE genuinely remarkable and genuinely fulfilled prophecy?

I can't present one because I have three! Actually, I have more than three.

You have presented none.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Is fulfilled prophecy not good evidence for the existence of God?

Yes, if the requirements for prophecy-fulfilment could be met (specific, not easily guessed, made before the event, verifiably fulfilled etc).

How unfortunate for you that there are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Erm, how is it that people know (and insist!) that they have clearly been refuted, then?

Every "Biblical prophecy" is EITHER clearly false (e.g. Tyre, Babylon etc) OR fails to meet the basic criteria for a "prophecy".

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

But “Babylon will never be rebuilt or reinhabited�? is not so unclear, nor is “There will always be Jewish people.�?

A clearly failed prophecy, and an unremarkable claim (i.e. a non-prophecy).

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

John B.: How do you account for the fact that many, many people with a missing limb know that praying won't heal them and so they don't pray?

But I believe God can do this, and he will:

Isaiah 35:6 Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.

This, of course, never actually happens. Indeed, it's as mythical as the notion that there are fulfilled prophecies somewhere in the Bible.

Why DOESN'T God regenerate limbs? Why AREN'T there fulfilled prophecies in the Bible?

Biff the unclean · 12-20-2005, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Which prophecies, specifically, may I ask? Speaking of vague prophecies…

EVERY prophecy that the Oracle at Delphi made, when properly interperted, came true. Every war, every political action for over a thousand years.
The Pythoness would commune with the God and then dance about and speak in tongues, then the male priests would write down for you what her speech meant in poetic Greek. Then you had to hire someone to put that into literal Greek.
Sometimes the last person got it wrong, but the Pythoness and the Priests...never. They were always correct.They were proof positive that Apollo existed.

Personally I think that prophecy is stupidity itself and does not prove the existence of Apollo.But if you accept prophecy as proof of God then you must accept that Apollo actually exists.

lee_merrill · 12-20-2005, 10:00 AM

Hi everyone,

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Broussard

"How do you account for the fact that many, many people are not healed after praying?"

And your answer just says there's no guarantee the prayer will work because god knows best.

Yes, that is correct, prayer is a request from someone who knows more than we do. And yet any healing after prayer, when natural healing would not be expected, does indicate the existence of God, and also willingness, and ability to help.

Quote:

Are you really claiming that a lame person is one who has a missing leg.

Indeed, a person with a missing leg is considered to be lame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

There are no fulfilled prophecies anywhere in the Bible.

Well, saying this over and over again doesn't make it true...

Quote:

Babylon was not destroyed when it was prophesied to be, and it was inhabited when it was not supposed to be. As you know.

Where was the time specified for the Babylon prophecy?

Still waiting for my travel agency reservation! I would like to take a tour, and meet the mayor.

Quote:

There is nothing remotely implausible or miraculous about the survival of the Jewish people thus far, and they were never in danger of worldwide extermination by Hitler.

And if Hitler had gotten an atomic bomb?

Quote:

Why DOESN'T God regenerate limbs?

I believe there is one report which is of that sort. John doesn't seem to want to discuss Paul Cain's credentials further, though...

Regards,
Lee

John A. Broussard · 12-20-2005, 12:23 PM

Quote:

JAB: Are you really claiming that a lame person is one who has a missing leg.

Quote:

lee: Indeed, a person with a missing leg is considered to be lame.

Surely you jest.

You didn't even tryto answer the question.

Let me present that question again, making it as clear as possible. I know someone in my neighborhood who is lame. She says she's lame. The doctors say she's lame. I say she's lame. If you saw her walking with her walker, you too would say she was lame.

On close observation, it is quite evident that she has both legs.

Now, after all that, can you claim that a person who is lame has a missing leg?

Take your time. Think about it. It's not an easy question to answer.

Need more details?

If I say that the neighbor I described above was "lame," could you then assume that she had a missing leg?

If you need further explanations, don't hesitate to ask.

I look forward to your answer.

John A. Broussard · 12-20-2005, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

I believe there is one report which is of that sort. John doesn't seem to want to discuss Paul Cain's credentials further, though...

Quite the contrary. I'm eager to find out more about Paul Cain, how he had a leg amputated and it grew back. It's a subject for a TV documentary. Not only that, but there are hundreds of veterans with missing limbs who want to hear about this.

Please tell me more about Paul Cain. Tell me about the hospital he was in, how he had a stump which sprouted a new limb.

More, lee.

I'm only to happy to examine Paul Cain's credentials. Where, when, how? Who did he pray to?

But, enough questions.

Please give me the full details about this miraculous restoration of a missing limb.

I'm eagerly awaiting your response. Please don't keep me waiting.

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12-17-2005, 09:59 PM	#262
John A. Broussard Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,629	I posted this earlier, but you seem to have overlooked it: Thanks for the reply, though you answered only one of the questions I asked, namely: "How do you account for the fact that many, many people are not healed after praying?" And your answer just says there's no guarantee the prayer will work because god knows best Care to try this one next?: "How do you account for the fact that many, many people with a missing limb know that praying won't heal them and so they don't pray?"

12-19-2005, 06:12 PM	#265
John A. Broussard Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,629	Third posting: I posted this earlier, but you seem to have overlooked it: Thanks for the reply, though you answered only one of the questions I asked, namely: "How do you account for the fact that many, many people are not healed after praying?" And your answer just says there's no guarantee the prayer will work because god knows best Care to try this one next?: "How do you account for the fact that many, many people with a missing limb know that praying won't heal them and so they don't pray?" Are you really claiming that a lame person is one who has a missing leg. I can't believe that. Want to try again?

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