Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fallingblood · 06-17-2004, 04:04 PM

I'm going to post this in sections so it doesn't seem like to much, and so you can debate it better (that's if you find somethign you think is wrong), and I hope you guys do (I mean debate it, not find something wrong).

In this section I am going to discuss just the birth and family life of Jesus.

Jesus was born on October 9th, 2 BC (this date is not set in stone). Some say it might be 7 BC (I agree more with this date).

Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary. The Bible and Quran states this.
Q 3:47 She (Mary) said: My Lord, how can I have a son and man has not yet touched me? He said: Even so; Allah creates what He please. When He decress a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is. (Note that it does not say that Jesus was born to a virgin or even that his conception was out of the ordianary. So this shows that he might not be born from a virgin).

Matthew 1: 18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (To my surpirise, I could find no other verse. There was Luke 2:5, but it doesn't say anything special about the conception).
**Side note: If Jesus wasn't born to Joseph, he would not be of the line of David and therefore not the King of the Jews. (You must understand that there where many men who claimed and were called the Kind of the Jews and the Messiah, which I will discuss later on. Jesus does not fit the Messiah description since he in not from the line of David and the bible points out).

Many believe that Jesus was God just in human form. That would be like saying he had a kid that was him. Or that he is his own father. You wouldn't be me if I said I was my own father so why believe him. It would also be conidered incest since Jesus would have had a kid with his mom. Incest is condemned by the Bible. Which leads me to the conclusion that Jesus was not born of a virgin mother.

Jesus had atleast 6 siblings. Two or more were sisters, and four brothers- James, Joses (Joseph), Judas, and Simon. The former became the head of the Palestinian part of the Movement after the crucifixation. Jesus's mother, Mary, was probably married at 12 or 13 years old and would have been in her early 40's at the time of the crucifixation. Mary would have been illiterate since only boys were taught to read.

Jesus was Jewish. He was dark-skinned (which contradicts how most christians think of Jesus). His name was Yeshua, which translates to Joshua (but since most know him as Jesus, I will stick to that name).

The gospel writers strongly suggest taht the relationships between Jesus and the reast of the family were often strained. Mark says that Jesus replaced the traditional kinship ties with those who followed him:
"And looking round at those who were about him, he daid, hear are my mother and my brothers. Whoever does the will of God is my brother, my sister, my mother."

Luke tells us of the three days of intense anxiety his parents experienced when they thought he was lost. And almost every time we see Jesus with Mary (his mother) ther is stress and misunderstading.

Jesus also had a wife, but I will discuss that more in detail later. I will just say now that her name was Mary Magdalene.

That is it for the first section. I will be adding more sections in the future.

graymouser · 06-17-2004, 05:13 PM

I think you'll need more solid references for the points you've got here; as well, this would do better in the Biblical Criticism & History forum (where it'll probably be moved relatively soon).

-Wayne

Toto · 06-17-2004, 05:25 PM

Is there any reason to think that what the Bible or the Qur'an report is based on fact as opposed to theology?

fallingblood · 06-17-2004, 05:59 PM

graymouser- Can you tell me what points you are talking about, or do you mean the whole thing?

graymouser · 06-17-2004, 06:37 PM

I mean the whole thing. Most assertions you make on the life of Jesus are going to be controversial; for instance, the date of birth - there are a great number of potential dates. There are good reasons for believing a lot of things about Jesus, but you'd have to back them up and show your methodology clearly, because the work done on the subject is mind-boggling and bare assertions do not cut it.

A number of the points on this would make for multi-page discussions on the BC&H forum (I'm an interested lurker there; my attempts at posting were quite humbling).

-Wayne

fallingblood · 06-17-2004, 06:43 PM

graymouser- Thanks, I will do a little more research and try better to back my point up.

graymouser · 06-18-2004, 04:15 AM

fallingblood:

It's a hairy and difficult subject, and I wish you luck with it. There are a lot of good resources in the BC&H forum if you want to look through them, and a lot of good past posts debating some of the issues you raise (I know the year of Jesus' birth has been a matter of some contention; so have other points).

-Wayne

06-17-2004, 04:04 PM	#1
fallingblood Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mandan, ND Posts: 80	The Story of Jesus I'm going to post this in sections so it doesn't seem like to much, and so you can debate it better (that's if you find somethign you think is wrong), and I hope you guys do (I mean debate it, not find something wrong). In this section I am going to discuss just the birth and family life of Jesus. Jesus was born on October 9th, 2 BC (this date is not set in stone). Some say it might be 7 BC (I agree more with this date). Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary. The Bible and Quran states this. Q 3:47 She (Mary) said: My Lord, how can I have a son and man has not yet touched me? He said: Even so; Allah creates what He please. When He decress a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is. (Note that it does not say that Jesus was born to a virgin or even that his conception was out of the ordianary. So this shows that he might not be born from a virgin). Matthew 1: 18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (To my surpirise, I could find no other verse. There was Luke 2:5, but it doesn't say anything special about the conception). **Side note: If Jesus wasn't born to Joseph, he would not be of the line of David and therefore not the King of the Jews. (You must understand that there where many men who claimed and were called the Kind of the Jews and the Messiah, which I will discuss later on. Jesus does not fit the Messiah description since he in not from the line of David and the bible points out). Many believe that Jesus was God just in human form. That would be like saying he had a kid that was him. Or that he is his own father. You wouldn't be me if I said I was my own father so why believe him. It would also be conidered incest since Jesus would have had a kid with his mom. Incest is condemned by the Bible. Which leads me to the conclusion that Jesus was not born of a virgin mother. Jesus had atleast 6 siblings. Two or more were sisters, and four brothers- James, Joses (Joseph), Judas, and Simon. The former became the head of the Palestinian part of the Movement after the crucifixation. Jesus's mother, Mary, was probably married at 12 or 13 years old and would have been in her early 40's at the time of the crucifixation. Mary would have been illiterate since only boys were taught to read. Jesus was Jewish. He was dark-skinned (which contradicts how most christians think of Jesus). His name was Yeshua, which translates to Joshua (but since most know him as Jesus, I will stick to that name). The gospel writers strongly suggest taht the relationships between Jesus and the reast of the family were often strained. Mark says that Jesus replaced the traditional kinship ties with those who followed him: "And looking round at those who were about him, he daid, hear are my mother and my brothers. Whoever does the will of God is my brother, my sister, my mother." Luke tells us of the three days of intense anxiety his parents experienced when they thought he was lost. And almost every time we see Jesus with Mary (his mother) ther is stress and misunderstading. Jesus also had a wife, but I will discuss that more in detail later. I will just say now that her name was Mary Magdalene. That is it for the first section. I will be adding more sections in the future.

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06-17-2004, 05:13 PM	#2
graymouser Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Collingswood, NJ Posts: 1,259	I think you'll need more solid references for the points you've got here; as well, this would do better in the Biblical Criticism & History forum (where it'll probably be moved relatively soon). -Wayne

06-17-2004, 05:25 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Is there any reason to think that what the Bible or the Qur'an report is based on fact as opposed to theology?

06-17-2004, 05:59 PM	#4
fallingblood Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mandan, ND Posts: 80	graymouser- Can you tell me what points you are talking about, or do you mean the whole thing?

06-17-2004, 06:37 PM	#5
graymouser Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Collingswood, NJ Posts: 1,259	I mean the whole thing. Most assertions you make on the life of Jesus are going to be controversial; for instance, the date of birth - there are a great number of potential dates. There are good reasons for believing a lot of things about Jesus, but you'd have to back them up and show your methodology clearly, because the work done on the subject is mind-boggling and bare assertions do not cut it. A number of the points on this would make for multi-page discussions on the BC&H forum (I'm an interested lurker there; my attempts at posting were quite humbling). -Wayne

06-17-2004, 06:43 PM	#6
fallingblood Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mandan, ND Posts: 80	graymouser- Thanks, I will do a little more research and try better to back my point up.

06-18-2004, 04:15 AM	#7
graymouser Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Collingswood, NJ Posts: 1,259	fallingblood: It's a hairy and difficult subject, and I wish you luck with it. There are a lot of good resources in the BC&H forum if you want to look through them, and a lot of good past posts debating some of the issues you raise (I know the year of Jesus' birth has been a matter of some contention; so have other points). -Wayne

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