MrFurious76

Or addicted to the coffee and cigarettes present in abundance in every AA meeting I've been to And talk about weird, the boys in our home we had to try to stop from using alcohol and mary jane......yet they were allowed to smoke and always had coffee brewing. Just another one of the hypocricys (spelling?) of the whole deal that caused me to leave. It's almost impossible to get someone off marijuana when the same day when they're smoking two packs a day of cigarettes and OUR EMPLOYEES are instructed to buy them for the clients if they have it on their grocery list!!!

:banghead:

Jackalope

>shudder<
I had to quit wearing contact lenses when I worked at the detox because of the nicotine buildup. After I took a good look at what ended up on the walls, ceilings, furniture, and even my clothes, it became obvious that the yellow gunk on my contact lenses was from all that cigarette smoke. Working in that place is probably what kicked off my asthma problems so bad. I'd been mostly symptom-free for years until I started work at the detox...
And even though we had HEPA filters in the place, it just wasn't nearly enough. I did the filter cleanout. It was scary. I'm not sure how they'd handle it today, since the current OSHA regulations here in California wouldn't allow employees to be involuntarily exposed to that much cigarette smoke.

Talking to the guys who were doing the methadone program to kick heroin, they told me that it was easier getting off junk than quitting smoking. And they'd know. Which makes the smoking at AA meetings ritual even more abhorrent, as I saw many people who only occasionally smoked become chain smokers after they "sobered up" with AA.

MrFurious76

For us we had designated smoking rooms, but the stench of it still filtered throughout the building. Blech. Another good reason I quit that job

Revelation_Man

I believe AA was started by and is still operated largely by Christains, usually Protestants.

Though if you are atheist or another religion, they don't kick you out, and most don't bother trying to convert you. Though some do.

I don't understand the concept of AA myself. They're basic statement of doctrine is that alcohol is evil. They want there members to completely stop drinking all-together, rather than teach proper drinking habits. They should simply teach people to know their limits. But I guess their Protestant concept of evil alcohol won't allow drinking at all. I just, I'm sorry, I can't wrap my head around this.

The Hillbilly

Aye mate,

It is a total abstinence program. Discriminatory too! You've got to have a spiritual experience to ,ah, overcome alcoholism. Kinda like, you've got to accept jesus to get to heaven. Boloney, if you ask me.

BTW, weren't no heaven till man invented it. Weren't no alcoholics till man invented em.

AtheistSalmon

American Atheists used to have an in-depth page about AA. My last experience with AA was total discuss with having to sit through prayers, god this and that, and logical fallacies by the dozen -- just like church. My turn came around and I said, "Hi, my name is X and I am an ex alcoholic and an Atheist. Today I am going to tell you how Atheism and rational thought..." I got two paragraphs in before being rudely interrupted and physically removed in which I swung of this asshole god-freak and some "good ol' country girl" wielded her cell phone and said I am calling the police. Stunned, and grinning that I just punched a fundee in the jaw, I got in my car and speed away, turned off a remote road, and parked in a patch of trees, off road, and busted out laughing. And they say they are tolerant? Well, I am sure most groups are, and would just grudgingly listen to anyone's views, but there are bad apples in any group. I have never gone back. I have freewill to choose what to do and do not need credulous, superstitious, memes to tell me otherwise.

acronos

I am floored by the irony in this statement.

Why is it hard? If it is only a matter of will, why is it hard? Is it possible that factors outside of the will could make it harder? Maybe hard enough that no amount of will could overcome it.

If a person who is suicidal takes an anti-depressant, do you think it is possible that that would have an effect on the chances that they will go through with it. Say this person who is on an anti-depressant is suddenly removed from the drug and goes through withdrawal and a severe depression. She stopped taking the drug because she was happy and thought she was cured. This person commits suicide. Do you think the drug could have been a factor in her change of will?

Do you think a person who is taking LSD and jumps off a building thinking he could fly has the same mental faculties to judge the consequences of that action as he would have had off the influence of the drug? Drugs can influence mind. State of mind can also influence actions. An angry person will make different decisions in exactly the same circumstances than when that same person is sad. If drugs can influence our minds, then our actions are not solely the result of our will. Who we are is not a constant. In other words, the ability to make decisions can be influenced by factors that are outside of our control. (in the above example the guy was injected with the LSD against his will to keep you from missing the point) Just as the above drugs change the chemicals in the brain, so does addiction. It is NOT just a matter of will. The addiction affects the will. When sitting without an intense craving for a cigarette a person may decide that they want to quit, yet be unable to maintain that decision in the midst of an craving attack and then feel intense guilt and self loathing for their lack of willpower.

A person who recognizes that it is not just a matter of will might be able to avoid circumstances where the will has consistently failed. Such a person might avoid a cake shop if they are trying to alter their weight. Or, avoid ever drinking the first drink because they know the second one will be even harder to resist.

I actually agree with you that an addicts success or failure in his or her attempts (which were willed) to overcome the addiction will ultimately depend on the choices they make or their will. Someone who takes responsibility for what they can control will ultimately have the greatest chance of success. However, sometimes that includes admitting that there are aspects of behavior that they are not in conscious control over and working to avoid those. They might also work to increase their control over such aspects using support groups, their genuine believe that a God is watching and will be upset with them, or mind altering drugs such as Prozac. While it is nice to live in the illusion that we are always in control of our actions, it is an illusion. The reality is that who we are is made up of many things that are beyond our control and always in a constant state of flux. However, it is also made up of many things that are within our control. An alcoholic has his best chance when he can tell the difference between the two.

Hogan

I realize this thread is old, and the dead horse has been beaten. I stumbled onto this thread through a google search for something completely different. Being intrigued by this post and the site in general, I joined the forum. Hopefuly greyline is out there still.

I am in A.A., and I do not believe in god as he is described in the bible... or any other god in the supernatural deity sense.

my comments are below.

This being my third time through a 12 step program (over 25 years), I knew going in I would be struggling with the whole god concept. The desire to get sober was more important to me than my lack of belief in those concepts. In later posts you mention the notion of will power and it is really just a choice to stop drinking. What I think is important for you to consider is that you can have no realistic understanding of the condition until you have lived it (I use condition because I know you disagree with the word disease). Yes, it does sound like a religion, and I ponder that on a regular basis. But again, my desire to stop drinking was stronger that my desire to close my mind to everything AA had to offer based on just a couple minor issues I had with it. In order to completely understand the steps, you really need to read the whole text, and other supporting text. The initial act of abstinence is merly will power. The steps, and supporting text, are guidelines for clearing up the emotional issues that have been created over a lifetime of abuse. Most alcoholics have serious emotional and behavioral issues that act as the foundation to abuse.

In the chapter to agnostics (in the AA book), they are very clear that the higer power concept is open to each persons interpretation. Yes, they do go on in attempts to sway your ideas to conform with theirs. For some people, this is necessary. I am not going to condemn or criticize someone that goes to church, just because they believe in something that I do not... that would only put me on their level (I say this because most God fearing people feel this uncrontrollable urge to pursuade you to their ideas). I would be a hypocrite if I criticized them for that, and also did it myself. This comes down to the individual person.... their thoughts, upbringings, cultural and environmental surroundings. Some people have lost all hope and faith in themselves and they need to believe there is something stronger than them to help them get and stay sober. If that is what they need, then so be it, I am not in any position to criticize them. For others, like myself, that have questions about the entire concept, there must be something else that works. It took me three months of extensive contemplation to figure out how I would make this work for myself. What I came down to is that my higher power is really myself. I have a lower and higher conscience. Most of my life I lived in my lower conscience. Knowing right from wrong, but choosing to do the wrong thing, treat people wrong, act wrong, etc (sorry for the overuse of the word wrong - and I know right and wrong is open to interpretations, lets not go into that) I have faith in myself that I can do pretty much anything I set my mind to (within reason). I know what I am capable of and I have proven it to myself numerous times over the years when I had to "step up". I now choose to live in my higher conscience where I must do the next right thing. This idea and concept has prompted me to start reading and learning more about ideas that may be similar (to date, have not done any additional reading) Treat myself, other people, etc, with kindness and respect. Group Of Drunks is used somewhere in this thread. I have heard that, but I chose to use "Good Orderly Direction". I do use the word god in my conversations with people in the program, and I say the prayers. The fact that my interpretation is probably completely different from everyone else in there is my own deal... its my program not theirs. Their program is theirs and not mine. Trust me, when in a conversation someone starts in about how they "just have to trust God, he wont give me more than I can handle", it pretty much turns my stomach... but who am I to criticize them? .. that is their deal, and if it works for them, awesome. During an AA meeting, there are several readings performed. One of them "How it works" is the first two pages of of a chapter in the book titled the same. It also contains the steps, presented for the first time in the book. Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the will of God (As we understood Him). Notice the word "him" and the fact that it is capitalized. Yes, throughout the text, they teach the program based on god as they understood him, mostly the one as described in the bible. When I am asked to read the piece during the meeting, I change the word "Him" to "it". I am not criticized for this. God is a major topic during meetings, whenever I am called upon to talk, I always make sure to point out that I do not believe in god as he is described in the bible. It is my hope that a newcomer siting in there thinking "oh boy, I need to get away from these god freaks", may stick around and hear that people are able to work the program without changing their core beliefs (I mention this because I know it comes up in this thread)
Regarding the whole ocean as a higher power thing, I agree with you, it needs to be something of a little more substance... but again, if it works don't knock it.

It seems that you have a couple different thesis here greyline. You start the thread talking about god, which is your first thesis. But you end it with this, which is a second thesis... oh well...
I don't think it is fair to look at the success of AA as a collective whole. If you break it out and look at its success based on just court ordered attendees, and volunteer attendees, you will see a dramatic difference. I don't have hard numbers to base this assumption on, but I feel confident the success rate is much much higher for those that walk in on their own will. If you look at the success rate for those that are court ordered, I believe the success rate is abysmal. With that said, I know of many folks that were court ordered and have several years (so far) sober.
As far as the courts go... well, there are not a whole lot of choices out there. One thought may be that there are still many people that have no idea what a 12 step program is. Even if the first time through is not a success, at least they are exposed to a solution when they are ready (I am a similar situation to that... I was court ordered the first two times, but not the third). I know there are other solutions out there that are more appealing to people that question God, but they will need to show some impressive numbers before the courts start sending folks their way - I am talking shear volume, not success, numbers. Getting back to success, even if the rate is at 20%, extrapulated over millions of people going through the doors, that is a fair amount of people getting the help they need. If the program helps just one person, isn't it worth it?
Regarding your question - sure its okay, what right do we have to tell you what to respect and not respect.

What disturbed me the most about this thread greyline, is that you make some pretty strong judgments about alcoholism and drug abuse based on your internet/book studies. I am certain that you can not fully relate to this issue without having lived it just a little. You are certainly allowed to have your opinions, I just hope that you can realize you are not fully equiped to understand by merely reading some books.

finally, to those who were talking about the addictions of cigarettes and coffee... I've been drinking coffee all my life, and still do. And you will be hard pressed to find a meeting that allows smoking these days (at least here in the Pacific Northwest). Othere addictions and bad habits are issues that people address in the program all the time. I know people that have quit smoking, speeding, drinking coffee, f@cking everything that moves, etc, while working a program of AA.

Shven

Could your higher power be your own willpower? Or would that make the 12 step program totally contradictory?

epepke

As for whether it's a religion, it's historically derivative from the Oxford group's 12-step program to eliminate sin. So it's based on a religious practice, but it may have been watered down enough to be considered not particularly religious any more.

As for whether it works, I've seen several studies showing that, statistically, people who join 12-step programs have a higher rate of return to alcohol and drug abuse than those who don't.

This may be due to simple selection bias--perhaps AA only gets the hard cases. It also may be due to the training in learned helplessness that AA provides. One of the tenets is that if you have one drink you'll wind up in the gutter. This may prime people so that they follow the script if they have one drink, even if it's a cough syrup with alcohol as a preservative.

At best, though, AA substitutes one dependency for another. This may still be an improvement only if one is in one of the relatively rare AA groups that don't allow smoking.

There used to be a group called Rational Recovery that was an alternative. However, they have in the past few years fixated upon a mystical psychological technique to the exclusion of most else.