Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 08-20-2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

It ignores the fact that all the earliest Christians were and remained Jews, that the entire New Testament is Jewish literature.

This is simply wishful thinking...

bacht · 08-20-2009, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Mark (or Paul?) gave us the "messianic secret": Jesus was the Messiah/Christ but the Jews didn't see it. Thus God chose the gentiles to inherit the kingdom of heaven because the Jews missed the revelation of truth in their own scriptures. And the Jews had been punished by God at the hands of the Romans. To a 2nd C gentile all this would seem reasonable: Jesus became "our" Jew, the one who opened the door to universal salvation after the Israelites blew it.

And this misreading is the origin of millennia of anti-Jewish venom from Christianity. It ignores the fact that all the earliest Christians were and remained Jews, that the entire New Testament is Jewish literature. Work on the historical Jesus has made it impossible now to doubt that Christ, too, was and remained a Jew. Thus, we have the Jewish reclamation of Jesus in the twentieth century, while Gentiles desperately try to hang on to their Greco-Roman god/man.

Were the first Christians really Jews? This is the official version but it's not the only possibility. At the least we have to allow for diaspora Jews who assimilated in varying degrees to Hellenistic culture in places like Syria and Egypt. We don't have to insist that Judea or Galilee were "ground zero" for the Christian movement.

There's no question that Christianity uses Jewish ideas and claims Jewish founders, but that doesn't prove it was really started by Jews. It could have arisen among gentile converts familiar with the Jewish traditions. Or the whole thing might not have begun until people like Marcion after the 2nd revolt.

No Robots · 08-20-2009, 09:08 AM

It is ironic that at a time when even the most chauvinistic Christian is forced to acknowledge a wholly Jewish origin for his faith, it is these so-called infidels who man the last bastion in defense of a non-Jewish origin. That they use their weird pseudo-science to substantiate their position is just icing on their cake of mud.

spin · 08-20-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

It is ironic that at a time when even the most chauvinistic Christian is forced to acknowledge a wholly Jewish origin for his faith, it is these so-called infidels who man the last bastion in defense of a non-Jewish origin. That they use their weird pseudo-science to substantiate their position is just icing on their cake of mud.

Tossed about by the seas of vogue, eh, No Robots? You've latched onto some opinions that point you that way, that christianity must be wholly Jewish in origin? Comfortable, I must admit. Much better Jewish than pagan. Reclaiming roots. You know like Khazars reclaiming their Jewishness. Cuckoo in the nest.

spin

Toto · 08-20-2009, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

It is ironic that at a time when even the most chauvinistic Christian is forced to acknowledge a wholly Jewish origin for his faith, ....

What is the force involved here? I think it is a delayed reaction to the Holocaust, and need to expiate the guilt of centuries of Christian anti-Semitism, and an attempt to promote a united religious front against the godless.

And if you look at the mass of less than scholarly Christians in America and elsewhere, anti-Semitism is not dead yet.

Otherwise this "Jesus was a Jew" just looks like the current fashion in scholarship, due to be replaced by a new trend when the novelty of this wears off.

Steven Carr · 08-20-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Otherwise this "Jesus was a Jew" just looks like the current fashion in scholarship, due to be replaced by a new trend when the novelty of this wears off.

But the idea that Jesus was a Jew who died is the most solid fact uncovered by 100 years of Historical Jesus research.

They are really starting to home in on the guy. Already this bio is far more detailed than the coverage of the Earth in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - 'Mostly harmless'.

Who knows what other facts will be uncovered by another 100 years of scholarly research on the historical Jesus?

spamandham · 08-20-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

In other words, if Luke and Matthew copied Mark, then Mark must have copied somebody else.

This is totally illogical.

You're right, it is illogical. There is no reason Mark couldn't have invented the original story all by himself. It had to start somehow.

rlogan · 08-20-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Dunn is arguing that if, in the cases where we can directly determine what is going on, the synoptic writers are being moderately faithful to the pre-existing tradition, then it is likely that this is true in the cases where such direct determination is impossible.

whaaa?

Quote:

they followed more-or-less faithfully yet earlier sources. Hence it is likely that a good deal of the synoptic gospel material goes back more-or-less to the time of Jesus himself.

Typical apologist canard: The bible has been faithfully copied a reeeeealy long time! So it's true!

Well, I guess we should not be surprised at what you found.

spamandham · 08-20-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

But the idea that Jesus was a Jew who died is the most solid fact uncovered by 100 years of Historical Jesus research.

icardfacepalm:

:notworthy:

dog-on · 08-21-2009, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

It is ironic that at a time when even the most chauvinistic Christian is forced to acknowledge a wholly Jewish origin for his faith, it is these so-called infidels who man the last bastion in defense of a non-Jewish origin. That they use their weird pseudo-science to substantiate their position is just icing on their cake of mud.

Christianity is an insult to Judaism. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-20-2009, 09:08 AM	#33
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	It is ironic that at a time when even the most chauvinistic Christian is forced to acknowledge a wholly Jewish origin for his faith, it is these so-called infidels who man the last bastion in defense of a non-Jewish origin. That they use their weird pseudo-science to substantiate their position is just icing on their cake of mud.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.