Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kapyong · 10-15-2010, 04:55 PM

Greetings all,

So I have looked into the ancient sources, especially around the time of Paul and the early Christians, to see if the matrix of ideas and beliefs for Earl Doherty' sub-lunar (non-physical) incarnation theory of Jesus can be found in writings of the time. I have used computer searches to seek out key phrases for my quotes, to show that the elements of such a theory were known and discussed around the time of Paul. I have also included later quotes, if they confirm earlier comments.

Of course the authors quoted generally don't support a sub-lunar incarnation of Jesus - because it was Paul who crafted this original conception from that matrix of ideas.

I have used capitals for the key terms to emphasize their nature as specific, formal, named regions.

Disclaimer: I do support Earl's theory, and I often champion his views, and sometimes use his work for sources. I have occasionally been in touch with Earl, even recently when I suggested a few web fora to him. But this essay was written from my personal research of the sources; and occasional reference to Earl's works - any errors are mine.
I've started a new thread, for dealing with just this specific subject. Anyone is free to duplicate or post or distribute this essay, provide they attribute it to 'Kapyong'.

Ancient Greek philosophers divided the Universe into a broad dichotomy -

* Above the Moon -
divine, eternal, immortal, unchangeable, ethereal, spiritual, pure, light, divine providence

* Beneath the Moon -
material, changeable, mortal, corruptible, impure, dark, unreasoned, fortune, reproduction, destruction, perishable, ageing

Here are some quotes showing these various distinctions :

Quote:

Cicero, The Dream of Scipio, 1st C.BC :
In the lowest Sphere the Moon revolves illumined by the rays of the Sun. Below [the Moon] in truth nothing exists which is not subject to death and decay, save indeed the Souls, which by the gift of the Gods are bestowed upon the human race. Above the Moon all things are eternal,

Quote:

Plutarch, Isis and Osiris. 1st C. :
for that part of the world which undergoes reproduction and destruction is contained underneath the orb of the Moon, and all things in it are subjected to motion and to change

Quote:

Plutarch, On the Failure of Oracles, 1st C. :
The power comes from the gods and demigods, but, for all that, it is not unfailing nor imperishable nor ageless, lasting into that infinite time by which all things between Earth and Moon become wearied out, according to our reasoning.

Quote:

Philo, On Abraham, 1st C. :
...the light in heaven is unalloyed and free from any admixture of darkness, but in the sublunary atmosphere it is mingled with dark air.

Quote:

Pliny Elder, History 2, 1st C. :
Above the Moon all is pure and lightsome continually.

Quote:

Epiphanius, Panarion I, 4th C. :
As well [Pythagoras] distinguished between what is Above the Moon which he called immortal, and what is Below [the Moon], which he called mortal.

Quote:

Epipanius, Panarion I, 4th C. :
Aristotle the son of Nicomachus [said] that things Above the Moon are subject to divine providence, but that what is Below the Moon is not ruled by providence but borne along by some unreasoned motion. But he says there are two worlds, the world above, and the world below, and that the world above is immortal while the world below is mortal.

Quote:

Eusebius, Preparatio Evangelica 15, 4th C. :
Aristotle: the part of the world Beneath the Moon may be affected by change, and the things terrestrial therein are doomed to perish.

Quote:

Julian, On the Mother of the Gods, 4th C. :
Attis, therefore, the intelligible Power, the holder together of things material Below the Moon, having intercourse with the pre-ordained Cause of Matter, holds intercourse therewith, not as a male with a female, but as though flowing into it, since he is the same with it.

Quote:

Sallust, On the Gods and the World, 5th C. :
Fortune has power Beneath the Moon, since Above the Moon no single thing can happen by fortune.

Here is a simple diagram of this dichotomy :

The region Below the Moon or the 'sublunary region' has the Earth as it central part (these are usually seen as concentric spheres, rather than flat layers shown on my simple diagram) :

Quote:

Chaldean Oracles, 2nd C. :
The Chaldæans assigned the place of the Image, the vehicle of the irrational soul, to the Lunar Sphere; it is probable that by the Lunar Sphere was meant something more than the orb of the Moon, the whole sublunary region, of which the terrestrial Earth is, as it were, the centre

Beneath the Moon are Air, Water and Earth - which undergo change :

Quote:

Philo, On the life of Moses, 1st C. :
Now of the three elements, out of which and in which all the different kinds of things which are perceptible by the outward senses and perishable are formed, namely, the Air, the water and the Earth, the garment which reached down to the feet in conjunction with the ornaments which were attached to that part of it which was about the ankles have been plainly shown to be appropriate symbols; for as the tunic is one, and as the aforesaid three elements are all of one species, since they all have all their revolutions and changes Beneath the Moon.

Air is Beneath the Moon - and between the Earth and Moon

Air fills the empty regions Below the Moon, between the Earth and the Moon, separating them :

Quote:

Philo, On the Creation, 1st C. :
For the Air is in a manner spread above the empty space, since having mounted up it entirely fills all that open, and desolate, and empty place, which reaches down to us from the regions Below the Moon.

Quote:

Plutarch, On the Failure of Oracles, 1st C. :
Now if the Air that is between the Earth and the Moon were to be removed and withdrawn, the unity and consociation of the universe would be destroyed, since there would be an empty and unconnected space in the middle;

Quote:

Nag Hammadi, Asclepius :
Listen, Asclepius! There is a great demon. The great God has appointed him to be overseer or judge over the souls of men. And God has placed him in the middle of the Air, between Earth and heaven. Now when the soul comes forth from (the) body, it is necessary that it meet this daimon.

The 'sublunar sphere' is a distinct sphere, separate to Earth, Moon, stars, etc. :

Quote:

Porphyry, On Images, 3rd C. :
There are also nine Muses singing to his lyre, which are the (one) sublunar sphere, and seven spheres of the planets, and one of the fixed stars.

So, the Air is a separate, distinct region between the circle of the Moon and the Earth.

Air is, at least in part, adjacent to Earth.

Quote:

Philo, The Special Laws, 1st C. :
the rulers being all the bodies which are in heaven, such as planets and fixed stars; and the subjects being all the natures Beneath the Moon, hovering in the Air and adjacent to the Earth.

Quote:

Plutarch, The Plays of Homer, 1st C. :
The top part of the Air is finer and more distant from the Earth and its exhalations.

The Upper Air is just Beneath the Moon :

Quote:

Julian, The Caesars, 4th C. :
But just Below the Moon in the upper Air he had decided to entertain the Emperors.

Good souls rest in the mildest parts of Air, unjust souls are punished elsewhere :

Quote:

Plutarch, On the Face in the Moon, 1st C. :
Unjust and licentious souls pay penalties for their offences; but the good must for a certain appointed time, sufficient to purge away and blow to the winds, as noxious exhalations, the defilements which come from the body, their vicious cause, be in that mildest part of the Air which they call 'The Meadows of Hades'

So, there are at least two parts to the Air.

Shown in a diagram, it seems like this :

Completing The Picture

There are also the following spheres or worlds to add :
* The underworld (Hades, Tartarus, Elysium)
* The Planetary Spheres
* The Empyrean (a late term for the highest sphere)

This gives a picture like so :

This is my summation of the classical view - but not everyone saw it exactly the same - some early writers locate Hades Under the Moon, at the Moon, or even on the far side.

The Air is filled with living beings and things and events

It should be clear that the Air is not the same as the mundane air i.e. atmosphere, (although it developed from it.) The atmosphere was generally seen as being the highest physical later of Earth, and perhaps co-mingling with the lower Air.

In the Air are many living beings - invisible souls, demons, spirits, angels - they can see us, but we generally cannot see them :

Quote:

Philo, On Dreams, 1st C. :
This Air is the abode of incorporeal souls, since it seemed good to the Creator of the universe to fill all the parts of the world with living creatures. On this account he prepared the terrestrial animals for the Earth, the aquatic animals for the sea and for the rivers, and the stars for the heaven; for every one of these bodies is not merely a living animal, but is also properly described as the very purest and most universal mind extending through the universe; so that there are living creatures in that other section of the universe, the Air.

Quote:

Philo, On the Giants, 1st C. :
Those beings, whom other philosophers call demons, Moses usually calls angels; and they are souls hovering in the Air.
...
It is therefore necessary that the Air also should be full of living beings. And these beings are invisible to us, inasmuch as the Air itself is not visible to mortal sight.

Quote:

Plutarch, On the face in the Moon 28, 1st C. :
All souls, whether without mind or with it, when it has issued from the body is destined to wander in the region between Earth and Moon but not for an equal time.

Quote:

Lucan, 1st C. :
205 Now darkness came upon their wondering gaze, Now daylight pale and wan, their helmets wreathed In pallid mist; the spirits of their sires Hovered in Air, and shades of kindred dead Passed flitting through the gloom.

Quote:

Testament of Solomon, 1st-5th C. :
Testament of Solomon, son of David, who was king in Jerusalem, and mastered and controlled all spirits of the Air, on the Earth, and under the Earth.

Some demons Under the Moon are good :

Quote:

Porphyry, On Abstinence from Animal food, 3rd C. :
Such souls as are the progeny of the whole soul of the universe, and who govern the great parts of the region under the Moon, these, being incumbent on a pneumatic substance or spirit, and ruling over it conformably to reason, are to be considered as good dæmons,

Some demons or 'powers' of the Air are bad, but can be conquered by the actions of Christian martyrs :

Quote:

Augustine, City of God, 4th C. :
And these fables mystically signified that Juno was mistress of the Air, which they suppose to be inhabited by the demons and the heroes, understanding by heroes the souls of the well-deserving dead. But for a quite opposite reason would we call our martyrs heroes,--supposing, as I said, that the usage of ecclesiastical language would admit of it,--not because they lived along with the demons in the Air, but because they conquered these demons or powers of the Air,

Non-Physical Actions Occur in the Air

Various sorts of (non-physical) actions are performed by the beings in the Air - especially related to death, punishment, and birth.

Demons punish souls in lakes in the Air :

Quote:

Plutarch, Vision of Arideus, 1st C. :
Moreover, he said, there were certain lakes that lay parallel and equidistant one from the other, the one of boiling gold, another of lead, exceeding cold, and the third of iron, which was very scaly and rugged. By the sides of these lakes stood certain Daemons, that with their instruments, like smiths or founders, put in or drew out the souls of such as had transgressed either through avarice or an eager desire of other men’s goods.

Activities of various kinds occur there :

Quote:

Apocalypse of Zephaniah, 1st C. :
Now I went with the angel of the Lord, and he took me up (over) all my city. There was nothing before my eyes. 2 Then I saw two men walking together on one road. I watched them as they talked. 3 And, moreover, I also saw two women grinding together at a mill. And I watched them as they talked. 4 And I also saw two upon a bed, each one of them acting for their (mutual) ... upon a bed.

Transparent sacrifices occur in the bright Air, and it is filled with light for the manifestation of things below :

Quote:

Macarius Magnes, Apocritus, 4th C. :
So invisible spirits which flew in the Air, which Isaiah sang of as flying serpents, demanded white and transparent sacrifices of birds, seeing that the Air chances to be bright, and filled with light for the manifestation of the things that are below.

Note the comment that gods have non-physical bodies and blood :

Quote:

Cicero, On the Nature of the Gods :
it must be admitted that the gods have the outward aspect of man, though this is not body, but quasi-body, and does not contain blood, but quasi-blood.

So it is clear that higher beings and objects existed - not having physical bodies - but some OTHER sort of material.

All life on Earth is affected from the Air

Air is filled with the seeds of vitality, vital spirit, and is productive of life due to God's special favour :

Quote:

Philo, On the Giants, 1st C. :
It is then natural that that medium by which all other animals, whether aquatic of terrestrial, are vivified should itself be empty and destitute of souls? On the contrary, even if all other animals were barren, the Air by itself would be bound to be productive of life, having received from the great Creator the seeds of vitality by his especial favour.

Quote:

Pliny Elder, History 2, 1st C. :
For even that part also have our forefathers called the Sky, which otherwise they name Air: even all that portion of the whole, which seeming like a void and empty place, yields this vital spirit whereby all things do live. This region is seated Beneath the Moon,

Quote:

Origen, Celsus 8, 3rd C. :
Celsus goes on to say: "Let any one inquire of the Egyptians, and he will find that everything, even to the most insignificant, is committed to the care of a certain demon. The body of man is divided into thirty-six parts, and as many demons of the Air are appointed to the care of it, each having charge of a different part, although others make the number much larger. "

Conclusion :

By Paul's time, the following beliefs were known and discussed :

There is a distinct region between the Earth and the Moon
This region, called 'Air', is Beneath the Moon
This Air separates the Earth from the Moon
The Air is occupied with invisible beings, spirits, souls, demons, even Gods
In the Air are non-physical things - lakes, thrones, beds, goblets, mountains etc.
In the Air are non-physical beings, good and bad - souls, demons, spirits, even Gods
In the Air higher Beings take action - such as whipping, punishments, even sex
What happens In the Air is vital to us down on Earth.

Next, I will look specifically into the Christian view of such things as the firmament and heavens etc.

Kapyong

gdeering · 10-15-2010, 08:10 PM

Thanks Kapyong, I look forward to reading more.

Gregg

spamandham · 10-15-2010, 08:32 PM

Very nice. I certainly haven't seen such a comprehensive collection of these ideas.

Utu · 10-15-2010, 11:00 PM

Excellent post, Kapyong.

mountainman · 10-16-2010, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

This is my summation of the classical view - but not everyone saw it exactly the same - some early writers locate Hades Under the Moon, at the Moon, or even on the far side.

The Air is filled with living beings and things and events

G'day Kapyong,

Am impressed very much by all of this. Many thanks. Love the diagrams. I have a cupla questions and a few more cites that may be relevant to your collection.

But first a quick Q about "Paul's time" ..... Before you get into the "Christian stuff" I'd like to make the chronology explicit.

Quote:

Conclusion :

By Paul's time, the following beliefs were known and discussed :

There is a distinct region between the Earth and the Moon
This region, called 'Air', is Beneath the Moon
This Air separates the Earth from the Moon
The Air is occupied with invisible beings, spirits, souls, demons, even Gods
In the Air are non-physical things - lakes, thrones, beds, goblets, mountains etc.
In the Air are non-physical beings, good and bad - souls, demons, spirits, even Gods
In the Air higher Beings take action - such as whipping, punishments, even sex
What happens In the Air is vital to us down on Earth.

By "Paul's time" I take it you are referring to sometime in the 1st or 2nd centuries if we accept the current scattering of dates for "Paul". I imagine you could use this data to be representative of any of the centuries 1, 2, 3 or 4, perhaps even later - is this correct?

Further data from Pythagoras

The following has been sourced from Page 272 of "A History of Greek Philosophy", Volume I: The Earlier PreSocratics and the Pythagoreans (or via: amazon.co.uk)
- by W.K.C. GUTHRIE (Published 1962) .

Although this may not be directly relevant, I thought I'd mention that Pythagoras makes reference to the "Counter-Earth" and to a hierarchy of elements associated with the "earth, water, air" -- the "fire" which they held to be as the "Central Hearth" and also to a 5th element, called the "aether" which they associated with the heavenly realms - the cosmic element. (Referenced from writings by Aristotle on the Pythagoreans ... Aetius III,II,3 (DK,44a,17)) This 5th element is sometimes seen as similar to the Indian "akasha" or space.

Pythagoras derived the world from the fire and the fifth element"

The Pythagoreans held that the cosmos "Breathed in" from the Infinite Breath outside it: the "aither"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aetius.III,II,3(dk,44a,17)

Philolaus the Pythagorean says that FIRE is at the center, calling it the hearth of the universe; second comes the COUNTER-EARTH, and third the inhabited earth which in its revolution remains opposite the counter-earth, wherefore the inhabitants of this earth do not see those of the other"

The "counter-earth" is associated with the moon. I think that they realised we live in a binary earth/moon system

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplicius: DeCaelo 512.9

"They call the earth a star as being itself an instrument of time, for it is the cause of day and night. Day it creates by being lit up on the side which turned toward the sun, and night through the cone of its shadow.

COUNTER EARTH was the name given by the Pythagoreans to the MOON (as also "heavenly earth"), both because it blocks the sun's light, which is a peculiarity of the earth, and because it marks the limit of the heavenly regions as does the earth of the sublunary."

Kapyong · 10-16-2010, 04:13 AM

Greetings all,

This essay follows my previous one on "The Air Beneath the Moon", in which I discussed how the Ancient Greeks divided the world into spheres of existence, with a broad division into two two fundamental layers :

Above the Moon
Below the Moon

Jewish and Christians writers expressed some similar ideas, but divided by the Firmament instead of the Moon. Many writers were apparently influenced by the dividing of the waters from Genesis, in the context of a division or dichotomy in the universe.

The Firmament divides the Waters of Above and Below

The Firmament is called Heaven and divides the Waters Above from the Waters Below - many Christians quote Genesis :

Quote:

Genesis, 1:6 :
And God made the Firmament, and divided the waters which were under the Firmament from the waters which were Above the Firmament: and it was so. And God called the Firmament Heaven.

Quote:

Jubilees, 2nd C. BC :
And on the second day He created the Firmament in the midst of the waters, and the waters were divided on that day -half of them went up above and half of them went down Below the Firmament.

Various writers such as Theophilus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Ephraim, Epiphanius, John Damascene, Basil the Great, even Julian, and Augustine quote or refer to the division of the waters by the Firmament, e.g. :

Quote:

Theophilus, To Autolycus :
And God made the Firmament, and divided the waters which were Under the Firmament from the waters which were Above the Firmament. And God called the Firmament Heaven:

Quote:

Augustine, City of God :
The earth was separated from the water, and each element took its own distinct form, and the earth produced all that grows on it. On the second day, then? Not even on this; for on it the Firmament was made between the waters above and beneath, and was called "Heaven,"

The Waters Above and the Waters Below

It's not really clear specifically what this division represented in earlier times - by later times, various opinions arose -

Some said the Waters Above represents the Spiritual Perfect Man :

Quote:

Hippolytus, Heresies Bk 5, Ch. 4, 3rd C. :
"But the fourth river is Euphrates." This, they assert, is the mouth, through which are the passage outwards of prayer, and the passage inwards of nourishment. (The mouth) makes glad, and nurtures and fashions the Spiritual Perfect Man. This, he says, is "the Water that is Above the Firmament"

Some argued the divided waters split -

Below the Firmament - earthly, wicked, animal men
Above the Firmament - life-giving, the Good One, spiritual

Quote:

Hippolytus, Heresies, Bk 5, Ch. 22, 3rd C. :
For there has been a separation made between water and water; and there is water, that Below the Firmament of the wicked creation, in which earthly and animal men are washed; and there is life-giving water, Above the Firmament, of the Good One, in which spiritual living men are washed; and in this Elohim washed Himself.

Epiphanius (and Jerome and Augustine) said Origen says the divided waters split -

heroic beings of angelic power
demons, potencies of contrary sort

Quote:

Epiphanius, To John, 4th C. :
Origen says of the waters that are Above the Firmament that they are not waters, but heroic beings of angelic power, and again of the waters that are over the earth— that is, Below the Firmament— that they are potencies of the contrary sort— that is, demons?

Basil the Great has Origen as saying the division of the waters splits :

spiritual, incorporeal powers, good powers, purity, better
earth, matter, malignant, wicked, evil

The higher regions of the Waters Above are Above the Firmament.
The lower regions of the Waters Below are Under the Heaven.

Quote:

Basil, Homily 3, 4th C. :
certain writers in the Church (i.e. Origen) who, under the shadow of high and sublime conceptions, have launched out into metaphor, and have only seen in the waters a figure to denote spiritual and incorporeal powers. In the higher regions, Above the Firmament, dwell the better; in the lower regions, earth and matter are the dwelling place of the malignant. So, say they, God is praised by the Waters that are Above the Heaven, that is to say, by the good powers, the purity of whose soul makes them worthy to sing the praises of God. And the Waters which are Under the Heaven represent the wicked spirits, who from their natural height have fallen into the abyss of evil.

(I cannot yet find such a reference in my Origen files.)

Above the Firmament

There are regions, heavens, beings and actions Above the Firmament :

There is a region Above the Firmament :

Quote:

Pseudo-Philo, Antiquities 3, 1st C. :
I raised him up Above the Firmament and showed him all the orderings of the stars

God is Above the Firmament :

Quote:

Jubilees, 2nd C. BC :
Jacob, my beloved son, whom my soul loveth, may God bless thee from Above the Firmament,

There are heavens Above the Firmament :

Quote:

Apocalypse of Abraham, 2nd C. :
and we ascended upon many winds to the Heavens which were Above the Firmament.

Even good men can rise to the Region Above the Firmament, thus being 'as gods' :

Quote:

Ambrose, Hypomnemata, 3rd C. :
Oh the blessedness of the teaching which quenches the fire of appetite! which, though it makes not poets, nor fits men to be philosophers, nor has among its votaries the orators of the crowd; yet instructs men, and makes the dead not to die, and lifts men from the Earth as gods up to the region which is Above the Firmament.

Below the Firmament

The Firmament of Heaven could refer to the entirety of the sensible world :

Quote:

Philo, On the Confusion of Tongues, 1st C. :
and the footstool beneath his feet, which is, as it were, a work of sapphire stone, and, as it were, a resemblance to the Firmament of Heaven, namely, the world perceptible by the outward senses, which he describes allegorically by these figures

So by the time of Paul, this broad view was discussed :

Obviously quite similar to the Greek view at the time :

What's IN the Firmament ?

In some early books God himself is in the Firmament :

Quote:

Prayer of Azariah, 2nd C. BC :
Blessed art thou, O Lord, God of our fathers, ... Blessed art thou in the Firmament of Heaven and to be sung and glorified for ever.

But generally it contains Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets -

Quote:

Genesis :
{1:14} And God said, Let there be lights in the Firmament of Heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years: and let them be for lights in the Firmament of Heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: the stars also. And God set them in the Firmament of Heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night,

Quote:

Jubilees, 2nd C. :
And on the fourth day He created the sun and the moon and the stars, and set them in the Firmament of the Heaven,

Quote:

Pliny Elder, Histories 2, 1st C. :
And not only the seven wandering stars be of this power, but many of them also that are fixed in the Firmament; so often as they be either driven by the access and approach of those Planets, or pricked and provoked by the casting and influence of their beames

Above the Heavens are the Holy Ones - where it's Divine, Spiritual

Holy and spiritual beings are found Above the Heavens :

Quote:

1 Enoch 47, 1st C. BC :
In that day the prayer of the holy and the righteous, and the blood of the righteous, shall ascend from the earth into the presence of the Lord of spirits. In that day shall the holy ones assemble, who dwell Above the Heavens, and with united voice petition, supplicate, praise, laud, and bless the name of the Lord of spirits, on account of the blood of the righteous which has been shed; ...
At that time I beheld the Ancient of Days, while he sat upon the throne of his glory, while the book of the living was opened in his presence, and while all the powers which were Above the Heavens stood around and before him.

Quote:

Irenaeus, Heresies 2, 2nd C. :
yet all things of a more spiritual nature than these, -those, namely, which are Above the Heavens, such as Principalities, Powers, Angels, Archangels, Dominations, Virtues, -were produced by a spiritual process of birth

There is a Divinity Above the Heavens :

Quote:

4 Ezra 4:21
For as the land is assigned to the forest and the sea to its waves, so also those who dwell upon earth can understand only what is on the earth, and He who is Above the Heavens can understand what is above the height of the heavens.

Quote:

Julius Africanus, Events in Persia, 5th C. :
and do ye bid us take your bribes, and conceal the things which have been communicated to us by the Divinity who is Above the Heavens, and neglect the commandments of our proper King?

The Christian Heaven is material, below the spiritual :

Quote:

Irenaeus, Heresies 2, 2nd C. :
If, however, they labour to maintain that, while all material things, such as the heaven, and the whole world which exists below it, were indeed formed by the Demiurge,

Upper and Lower Heavens

Before Paul, belief in heavens above and below the Firmament arose :

Quote:

2 Enoch, 21:7
And I saw the Eighth Heaven, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Muzaloth, changer of the seasons, of drought, and of wet, and of the twelve constellations of the circle of the Firmament, which are above the Seventh Heaven.

Probably influenced by the Kabbalah, there are a total of ten heavens in 2 Enoch - 7 below the Firmament and 3 above.

Quote:

2 Enoch 20:3
On the Tenth Heaven is God

(Later works commonly have Seven Heavens, e.g. The Vision of Isaiah, Ascension of Isaiah, Irenaeus, Aristo of Pella, ClementA.)

Later, Nag Hammadi tells us that the Seventh Heaven is below the Veil of Above and Below.

Quote:

Hypostatis of the Archons, 3rd C. :
And Sophia and Zoe caught him up and gave him charge of the Seventh Heaven, below the Veil between Above and Below.

The Testament of the 12 Patriarchs has the lower three heavens as rather earthly :

gloomy, near the iniquities of men
fire, snow, ice; retributions for vengeance on the wicked
host of armies, for vengeance on the spirits of deceit and Beliar

But the four higher heavens are brighter and without comparison to the lower three :

Quote:

Testament of the 12 Patriarchs, 3:2, 2nd C. :
And I saw a third heaven far brighter than those two, for there was in it a height without bounds. And I said to the angel, Wherefore is this? And the angel said to me, Marvel not at these, for thou shall see four other heavens brighter than these, and without comparison,

There are heavens Under the Firmament :

Quote:

Apocalypse of Paul, 4th C. :
And I went along with the angel, and he brought me up into the heavens Under the Firmament

The Third Heaven

Back to Paul's time, we see a reference specifically to Paradise in the Third Heaven -

Quote:

The Life of Adam and Eve 11:1, 1st C. :
Then God spake to the archangel(s) Michael, (Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael): 'Go away to Paradise in the Third Heaven, and strew linen clothes and cover the body of Adam and bring oil of the 'oil of fragrance' and pour it over him.'

Perhaps that influenced Paul, who refers to BOTH 'paradise' and 'third heaven' in his famous passage -

Quote:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 :
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the Third Heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

The Christian Spheres of Existence in Paul's time

So, putting this all together, I conclude Paul probably saw the universe as being somewhat as follows :

Once again, we see this has much similarity to the Greek view :

The main difference is that the various planetary spheres and the stars are all combined in the (solid) Firmament. The Greeks tended to multiply spheres, whereas the Christians tended to multiply heavens.

Clearly, the Christian cosmology is similar to, and partially derived from, the Greek one.

Conclusion :

By Paul's time, the following Christian and Jewish beliefs were discussed :

There are both Upper and Lower heavens
Heavens exist both Above and Below the Firmament
Angels and Demons and other beings exist and act in the Lower Heavens
Divine beings can ascend and descend to/from heaven
Men can rise to the heavens
Paradise is in the Third Heaven

Along with the similar beliefs discussed in the previous part :

There is a distinct region between the Earth and the Moon
This region, called 'Air', is Beneath the Moon
This Air separates the Earth from the Moon
The Air is occupied with invisible beings, spirits, souls, demons, even Gods
In the Air are non-physical things - lakes, thrones, beds, goblets, mountains etc.
In the Air are non-physical beings, good and bad - souls, demons, spirits, even Gods
In the Air higher Beings take action - such as whipping, punishments, even sex
What happens In the Air is vital to us down on Earth.

Next I will be looking into the Heavenly Jerusalem.

(Anyone is free to duplicate or post or quote this essay provided they attribute it to Kapyong.)

Kapyong

Kapyong · 10-17-2010, 12:10 AM

Greetings all,

Here is a little essay on Paul's Heavens, building on from the previous two.

Paul's Heavens

So we have seen how the Christian and Greek spheres of existence could be seen (not that everyone saw it the same way - I am focussing on Paul's time and Paul's words.

On of the writers that combines Jewish/Christian with Greek thought is Philo ("Mr Love") who was a direct contemporary of Paul and wrote many works which are considered almost proto-Christian - some later writers considered Philo WAS a Christian.

Now let's look at Philo's fascinating comments about Jacob's Ladder -

Jacob's Ladder is the Air

In Christian tradition, Jacob's Ladder is in heaven :

Quote:

G.John 1:51 :
And he said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

But Philo specifically says Jacob's ladder is figuratively the Air - bridging the large interior space between Earth and Moon / Heaven :

Quote:

Philo, On Dreams, 1st C. :
Very admirably therefore does Moses represent the Air under the figurative symbol of a ladder, as planted solidly in the earth and reaching up to heaven. For it comes to pass that the evaporations which are given forth by the earth becoming rarefied, are dissolved into air, so that the earth is the foundation and root of the air, and that the heaven is its head.

The ladder reaches from the Moon, it's head is in heaven :

Quote:

Philo, On Dreams, 1st C. :
By the ladder in this thing, which is called the world, is figuratively understood the Air, the foundation of which is the earth, and the head is the heaven; for the large interior space, (which being extended in every direction, reaches from the orb of the moon, which is described as the most remote of the order in heaven, but the nearest to us by those who contemplate sublime objects, down to the earth, which is the lowest of such bodies,) is the air.

The Moon lies at the boundary of aether and air and combines them :

Quote:

Philo, On Dreams, 1st C. :
Accordingly it is said that the moon is not an unadulterated consolidation of pure aether, as each of the other stars is, but is rather a combination of the aether-like and air-like essence. For the black spot which appears in it, which some call a face, is nothing else but the air mingled with it, which is by nature black, and which extends as far as heaven.

Later, Basil says Heaven is in the Air :
Basil the Great, Homilies, 4th C. :

Quote:

"In the Firmament of Heaven," that is to say, as we have said before, in that part of the Air called heaven (ouranos), from the word oran, which means to see; called Firmament, because the air which extends over our heads, compared to the aether, has greater density,

From all this, we get a picture like so:

The Third Heaven

In Paul's time, there was reference specifically to Paradise in the Third Heaven -

Quote:

The Life of Adam and Eve 11:1, 1st C. :
Then God spake to the archangel(s) Michael, (Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael): 'Go away to Paradise in the Third Heaven, and strew linen clothes and cover the body of Adam and bring oil of the 'oil of fragrance' and pour it over him.

Perhaps such stories influenced Paul, who refers to BOTH 'paradise' and 'third heaven' in his famous passage -

Quote:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 :
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the Third Heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

Does this Third Heaven sound like the third of seven? Or the third of ten? No. This sounds like quite an accomplishment - this Third Heaven sounds like a high place.

I conclude that Paul's Third Heaven is the Heaven Above the firmament and that Paul sees the heavens like so :

3. The Heaven Above the Firmament
2. The Heaven of the Firmament
1. The Heaven Below the Firmament

Satan and spiritual forces of the Air

Christians saw Satan as being a power in the Air - this is clearly carried over from Greek beliefs about demons in the Air.

Many Christians quote the following passages :

Quote:

Ephesians 2:2, 1st C. :
according to the prince of the power of the Air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

This passage, and various others above help to confirm that the Christian Heaven Below the Firmamant is essentially the same as the Air.

Flesh vs Spirit

Paul often uses a dichotomy of Flesh vs Spirit and this is much discussed. I think Paul's
Flesh---Spirit, is like the Greek
Below--Above the Moon, and the Jewish/Christian
Below--Above the Firmament.

Combining all these ideas here, is what I think Paul saw as his Universe :

I have repeated the Flesh and Spirit to show how these divisions apply across multiple spheres - including how the 1st Heaven, the Heaven Below the Firmament, is within 'Flesh'.

Kapyong

maryhelena · 10-17-2010, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Greetings all,

Here is a little essay on Paul's Heavens, building on from the previous two.

Paul's Heavens

So we have seen how the Christian and Greek spheres of existence could be seen (not that everyone saw it the same way - I am focussing on Paul's time and Paul's words.

On of the writers that combines Jewish/Christian with Greek thought is Philo ("Mr Love") who was a direct contemporary of Paul and wrote many works which are considered almost proto-Christian - some later writers considered Philo WAS a Christian.

Now let's look at Philo's fascinating comments about Jacob's Ladder -

Jacob's Ladder is the Air

In Christian tradition, Jacob's Ladder is in heaven :

Quote:

G.John 1:51 :
And he said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

But Philo specifically says Jacob's ladder is figuratively the Air - bridging the large interior space between Earth and Moon / Heaven :

The ladder reaches from the Moon, it's head is in heaven :

The Moon lies at the boundary of aether and air and combines them :

Later, Basil says Heaven is in the Air :
Basil the Great, Homilies, 4th C. :

From all this, we get a picture like so:

The Third Heaven

In Paul's time, there was reference specifically to Paradise in the Third Heaven -

Perhaps such stories influenced Paul, who refers to BOTH 'paradise' and 'third heaven' in his famous passage -

Does this Third Heaven sound like the third of seven? Or the third of ten? No. This sounds like quite an accomplishment - this Third Heaven sounds like a high place.

I conclude that Paul's Third Heaven is the Heaven Above the firmament and that Paul sees the heavens like so :

3. The Heaven Above the Firmament
2. The Heaven of the Firmament
1. The Heaven Below the Firmament

Satan and spiritual forces of the Air

Christians saw Satan as being a power in the Air - this is clearly carried over from Greek beliefs about demons in the Air.

Many Christians quote the following passages :

Quote:

Ephesians 2:2, 1st C. :
according to the prince of the power of the Air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

This passage, and various others above help to confirm that the Christian Heaven Below the Firmamant is essentially the same as the Air.

Flesh vs Spirit

Paul often uses a dichotomy of Flesh vs Spirit and this is much discussed. I think Paul's
Flesh---Spirit, is like the Greek
Below--Above the Moon, and the Jewish/Christian
Below--Above the Firmament.

Combining all these ideas here, is what I think Paul saw as his Universe :

I have repeated the Flesh and Spirit to show how these divisions apply across multiple spheres - including how the 1st Heaven, the Heaven Below the Firmament, is within 'Flesh'.

Kapyong

But is not Paul saying he does not know whether "in the body or out of the body' was the man who was 'caught up to the Third Heaven". If Paul was, as some people seem to imagine, a Middle Platonist, then surely he would indeed know - he would know that 'flesh' is not a characteristic of Middle Platonism's sub-lunar realm. Actually, it seems to me, that Paul is more after taking a dig at Middle Platonism's philosophical ideas than being a proponent of such....

Kapyong · 10-17-2010, 02:55 AM

Gday Mary,

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

But is not Paul saying he does not know whether "in the body or out of the body' was the man who was 'caught up to the Third Heaven".

Not sure I fully understand that question?
I just think Paul is saying :
"Wow that was a bizarre experience - I went way to heaven, and I'm not even sure if I was in this body or not!"
He just has some pre-occupation with bodies and flesh. Not always clear what he is raving about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

If Paul was, as some people seem to imagine, a Middle Platonist, then surely he would indeed know - he would know that 'flesh' is not a characteristic of Middle Platonism's sub-lunar realm.

Well, it's soma, not sarx.

And, I don't think Paul is formally a Middle Platonist, exactly. He just seems aware of various theological ideas and seems to think he has something to contribute.

What Paul is - is a sui generis central Paulist.
Who had a wild vision of heavens that inspired him to read other visions and apocalypses, who was schizoid or drug-crazed or something, and who had great imaginative visions and ideas that he wanted to express.

People love that sort of stuff - if you've been to heaven, if you met angels, or had messages from hidden masters, or taken photographs of faeries .. people BELIEVE, people want to know more, people want to have those experiences.

I think Paul's central creative idea is that :
*SARX is everything below the Firmament
(and that
*SARX includes the Lower Heaven where angels and beings do things that affect us.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Actually, it seems to me, that Paul is more after taking a dig at Middle Platonism's philosophical ideas than being a proponent of such....

Maybe, not convinced.

K.

maryhelena · 10-17-2010, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Gday Mary,

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

But is not Paul saying he does not know whether "in the body or out of the body' was the man who was 'caught up to the Third Heaven".

Not sure I fully understand that question?
I just think Paul is saying :
"Wow that was a bizarre experience - I went way to heaven, and I'm not even sure if I was in this body or not!"
He just has some pre-occupation with bodies and flesh. Not always clear what he is raving about.

Perhaps badly worded on my part.....point is that Paul, if he knows Middle Platonism, would not be saying he does not know the cosmological and philosophical ramifications re his Third Heaven/Paradise story.

Quote:

Well, it's soma, not sarx.

And, I don't think Paul is formally a Middle Platonist, exactly. He just seems aware of various theological ideas and seems to think he has something to contribute.

So what was he supposedly contributing to Middle Platonism? Incarnation within the sub-lunar sphere? Hardly a contribution - that would be an outright rejection of it's basic premises. (ie. a sub-lunar sphere above the earth where incarnation can take place....)

Quote:

What Paul is - is a sui generis central Paulist.
Who had a wild vision of heavens that inspired him to read other visions and apocalypses, who was schizoid or drug-crazed or something, and who had great imaginative visions and ideas that he wanted to express.

People love that sort of stuff - if you've been to heaven, if you met angels, or had messages from hidden masters, or taken photographs of faeries .. people BELIEVE, people want to know more, people want to have those experiences.

I think Paul's central creative idea is that :
*SARX is everything below the Firmament
(and that
*SARX includes the Lower Heaven where angels and beings do things that affect us.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Actually, it seems to me, that Paul is more after taking a dig at Middle Platonism's philosophical ideas than being a proponent of such....

Maybe, not convinced.

K.

Methinks its far more likely that Paul is endeavoring to give Middle Platonism it's comeuppance...

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10-15-2010, 08:10 PM	#2
gdeering Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 237	Thanks Kapyong, I look forward to reading more. Gregg

10-15-2010, 08:32 PM	#3
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	Very nice. I certainly haven't seen such a comprehensive collection of these ideas.

10-15-2010, 11:00 PM	#4
Utu Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Washington Posts: 250	Excellent post, Kapyong.

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