Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jgreen44 · 01-15-2010, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

"AFTER three days and three nights" had passed indicates Ninshubur began his 'complaints' on the fourth day, whether the actual phrase "the fourth day" actually appears or not.
As I understand it, The construction indicates that Ninshubur remained unaware of her whereabouts, or was inactive about it until "AFTER three days and three nights" had passed, becoming aware, or active about her absence only "AFTER- (the passing of) -three days and three nights", upon the fourth day.

The internal evidence of the poem does not support the stretch of stressing "Inanna's Descent to the Nether World . . for Three Days and Three Nights"
The 'process leading to her revivification began "AFTER......" and could have stretched on for weeks or months. '
The AFTER Three Day and Three Nights' was not and is not a statement as to when Inanna's revivification or resurrection took place.
As it stands the the phrase only refers to the length Ninshubur's period of unawareness or inactivity, and has nothing at all to do with how long Inanna was deemed to be in 'the Nether World'.
It appears that the employment of this phase was an 'convention', a borrowing from some other, even earlier source.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

"AFTER three days and three nights" had passed indicates Jesus began his revivification on the fourth day, whether the actual phrase "the fourth day" actually appears or not.
As I understand it, The construction indicates that Jesus remained dead until "AFTER three days and three nights" had passed, beginning to revive only "AFTER- (the passing of) -three days and three nights", upon the fourth day.

The internal evidence of the Matthew 12:40 does not support the stretch of stressing Jesus's descent to the heart of the earth . . for Three Days and Three Nights"
The 'process leading to Christ's revivification began "AFTER......".

It appears that the employment of this phase was an 'convention', a borrowing from some other, even earlier source.

jgreen44 · 01-15-2010, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

It appears that the employment of this phrase ("three days and three nights") was a 'convention', a borrowing from some other, even earlier source.

The expression "three days and three nights" is seen to reflect the conception that death is permanent only after a body has shown no signs of animation after a period of three days, the idea being that until that time had elapsed, the soul was conceived as still lingering near the individual, encouraging the hope of revival. There are references to this idea in rabbinical literature, though it is actually much older, antedating the hellenistic era. E. Freistedt finds evidence for it not only in the Persian Vendidad (19, 90 ff.), which he dates to the 4th century B.C., but also possibly (though not as explicitly) presupposed in Homer's Iliad, which could well mean it goes back to the beginning of the first millenium B.C. In the NT such a conception seems to underlie Martha's comment to Jesus that Lazarus has already been in the tomb four days (John 11:17), the implication being that Lazarus' revival was totally out of the question.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3262800

Sheshbazzar · 01-15-2010, 03:01 PM

כי־חנם מזרה הרשת בעיני כל־בעל כנף׃

Chili · 01-15-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

The expression "three days and three nights" is seen to reflect the conception that death is permanent only after a body has shown no signs of animation after a period of three days, the idea being that until that time had elapsed, the soul was conceived as still lingering near the individual, encouraging the hope of revival. There are references to this idea in rabbinical literature, though it is actually much older, antedating the hellenistic era. E. Freistedt finds evidence for it not only in the Persian Vendidad (19, 90 ff.), which he dates to the 4th century B.C., but also possibly (though not as explicitly) presupposed in Homer's Iliad, which could well mean it goes back to the beginning of the first millenium B.C. In the NT such a conception seems to underlie Martha's comment to Jesus that Lazarus has already been in the tomb four days (John 11:17), the implication being that Lazarus' revival was totally out of the question.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3262800

Pardon me? If Jonah is equal to spending three days in the netherworld and went about his way afterwards how can this be a reflection of permanent death?

For souls to linger and then take off also sees a bit weird to me. Souls are wherein we are etenal and they do not go 'poof.'

jgreen44 · 01-15-2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

כי־חנם מזרה הרשת בעיני כל־בעל כנף׃

But i don't think of you as a bird.

jgreen44 · 01-15-2010, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Pardon me? If Jonah is equal to spending three days in the netherworld and went about his way afterwards how can this be a reflection of permanent death?

For souls to linger and then take off also sees a bit weird to me. Souls are wherein we are eternal and they do not go 'poof.'

Maybe you have access to the full article. I don't. So I am not sure what you are responding to. In any case, it was Jesus who connected his death to the experience of Jonah in the whale.

As for the attitude of souls after death, I seem to recall reading that Tibetan Buddhists teach in their Book of the Dead that a soul will linger near the corpse for a period of time. But, like you, I had never previously heard of any similar idea within Judaism.

Chili · 01-15-2010, 07:16 PM

It is true that the soul is the essence of the being but death here is describing te first death [of the ego] to which all the attributes belong. After this, the being (naked animal man) has no choice but go into the netherworld
and there set the captives free and that includes vices and virtues by which we are determined beings = the freedom of the Freeman (behind the green wall in WE, page 143 Dutton Record 27 page 2, writes about this at length but the words "lower world" are used there too = not easy read but very detailed).

The Green Wall is shown also on the Sistine chapel's "The Creation of Adam"

neilgodfrey · 01-15-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robto

The idea that Jesus descended to Hell seems to come from a later time (e.g. the 1 Peter quote above - and even there Jesus is only "preaching", not confronting/conquering Satan).

I can see nothing in 1 Peter that presupposes any knowledge of canonical gospel narratives. Seems to me more economical to place 1 Peter as pre-gospel "tradition". The idea of death presupposing one goes to the underworld to encounter departed spirits is as old as Homer and Gilgamesh, and this is where 1 Peter is at.

The gospel narrative details were the later developments.

Sheshbazzar · 01-16-2010, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

כי־חנם מזרה הרשת בעיני כל־בעל כנף׃

But i don't think of you as a bird.

Who told you that כל־בעל כנף is any bird?

Do you think this saying is really only about a 'bird'?

Do you know the 'nest' of every 'bird of the air'?

Perhaps a בעל כנף is a strange bird to you?

One that you have never before seen nor known?

While you may not 'think' of me as a bird, I am not snared by your limitations.

I am the master of my 'wings'.
The strength and the span of my 'wings' do bear me up on 'the wind', and the sight of my eyes is very keen.

I bear the scarlet thread within my my mouth, and pick what wall I will to land upon.

jgreen44 · 01-16-2010, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

I am the master of my 'wings'.

Please forgive the misunderstanding, ba`al. I was not trying to trap you (which would, of course, be impossible, given your obvious prowess and superiority). I was trying to trap the truth.

Come now, let us reason together. Though my sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

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01-15-2010, 03:01 PM	#13
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	כי־חנם מזרה הרשת בעיני כל־בעל כנף׃

01-15-2010, 07:16 PM	#17
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	It is true that the soul is the essence of the being but death here is describing te first death [of the ego] to which all the attributes belong. After this, the being (naked animal man) has no choice but go into the netherworld and there set the captives free and that includes vices and virtues by which we are determined beings = the freedom of the Freeman (behind the green wall in WE, page 143 Dutton Record 27 page 2, writes about this at length but the words "lower world" are used there too = not easy read but very detailed). The Green Wall is shown also on the Sistine chapel's "The Creation of Adam"

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