Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 05-04-2012, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

No, that was you who said there was no point.

So who built an ark? The animals?

All you've got is a flood that went up, then went down.

That, Mind Trick, is...

nothing!

Quote:

Look, I'm not into bandying wits with someone like you.

No surprise there.

Quote:

So who built an ark? The animals?

Yes, the animals did: they also were the imago dei.

semiopen · 05-04-2012, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

I do believe the mesopotamian myths are the source of the Noah myth. I think it has a historical core, perhaps Ziusudra is the closest to the truth, but Noah is largely embellished.

Once you have the concept of flood, a great flood follows naturally. Whoever wrote the original story might have had some actual event in mind, but the writers that followed might have had different ones.

In any case, it may be useful to consult the asteroid sluts about the

Flood_myth

Quote:

Another hypothesis is that a meteor or comet crashed into the Indian Ocean around 3000–2800 BC, created the 30 kilometres (19 mi) undersea

Burckle Crater, and generated a giant tsunami that flooded coastal lands.[4]

Of course, one cannot discuss the Burckle Crater without mentioning the

Holocene_Impact_Working_Group

Quote:

The Holocene Impact Working Group is a group of scientists from Australia, France, Ireland, Russia and the USA who hypothesize that meteorite impacts on Earth are more common than previously supposed.

The group posits one large impact (equivalent to a 10-megaton bomb) every 1,000 years. This estimate is based on evidence of five to ten large impact events in the last 10,000 years.

Quote:

The group states that their hypothesis is likely to be controversial: "I wouldn't expect 99.9 per cent of (the scientific community) to agree with us"[3] Their work is controversial because it contradicts much of what is understood about impacts and tsunamis.

This seems to be a serious group to me, unfortunately for the legitmate scientists, they have a bunch of crazy flood believers distorting whatever they are trying to do.

There was some interesting bullshit that came out in 2008 about the Köfels impact event

Quote:

The Köfels landslide was a huge mountain rockslide (a Sturzstrom[wp]) that occurred in the Austrian Alps about 9800 years ago. Some of its features mystified geologists for quite some time. One hypothesis was that it had been caused by an asteroid impact - a Köfels impact event - but more recent research has rejected the idea. This didn't stop a pair of British engineers from publishing a book that claims that a) it was an asteroid impact, b) it inspired a lot of myths, and c) it was recorded on an ancient Sumerian clay tablet.

It was a pretty short jump from the Sumerian tablet to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Decoded: The clay tablet that tells how an asteroid destroyed Sodom 5,000 years ago

Remarkable how such a seemingly plausible idea could become so fucked up.

sotto voce · 05-04-2012, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

No, that was you who said there was no point.

So who built an ark? The animals?

If there's any truth to the story it's more likely closer to the Ziusudra epic. A raft with a few animals...

Marooned animals with one of them who can spell. Now it's a story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

All you've got is a flood that went up, then went down.

That, Mind Trick, is...

nothing!

Quote:

No, it just isn't the extremely unlikely story that's presented by Noah.

Ah, so Noah is not an embellishment.

Quote:

What's simple gets overblown by subsequent peoples. It's not a very difficult concept, now is it?

No. Maybe it's a tad too easy?

Like an awful lot of stuff in this forum?

What we have is flood story myths that go far and wide, that must have been around soon after the last Ice Age. Story myths were never valued for historical or scientific content. Past events, real origins, didn't matter. That is where most people today are very wide of the mark. These myths were much valued for moral, social and religious content that determined and reflected the basis of societies.

That is to some extent the purpose of the one in the Bible, too. It has a spiritual value unlike any of the others. Noah is not an embellishment. No Noah, no ark, no story to tell. Noah is essential, in this version, as is a man rescued in others. He and his family represent, in the whole biblical context, all of those who will be saved. The important thing here is how they are saved.

mountainman · 05-04-2012, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The important thing here is how they are saved.

By Archimedes' Principle?

sotto voce · 05-04-2012, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The important thing here is how they are saved.

By Archimedes' Principle?

Nothing so controversial.

outhouse · 05-04-2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

This forum is heavy into Hjesus

Not enough of these flood myth legend debates here.

100% myth? or a historical core?

Im betting no one can reasonably dispute that Noahs legend originates in Mesopotamia.

Im betting no one can reasonably dispute that Mesopotamian's migrated to Israel after 1200 BC bringing these earlier legends with them.

Im betting no one can dispute the fact there are multiple flood legends originating from Mesopotamia, the exact same place Noah is said to originate from.

The oldest of these flood legends is a river flood where a man goes down the Euphrates on a barge loaded with livestock and good's where he lands next to a hill and burns a animal sacrifice.

heres the kicker

There was a real man Ziusudra mentioned on the kings list, this is the same man in the legend

The flood is real. The Euphrates flooded in 2900 BC after a 6 day thunderstorm on a already swollen river. this flood devistated the flat land surrounding the river.

no flood legends exist in the area previous to the attested flood, and many afterwards.

Noahs flood solved.

I do believe the mesopotamian myths are the source of the Noah myth. I think it has a historical core, perhaps Ziusudra is the closest to the truth, but Noah is largely embellished.

Agreed 100%

outhouse · 05-04-2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

I do believe the mesopotamian myths are the source of the Noah myth. I think it has a historical core, perhaps Ziusudra is the closest to the truth, but Noah is largely embellished.

There's not much point to the story, then.

False bud

completely wrong

israeli's used this as allegory and through metophor's and parables rewrote the whole legend to meet their personal needs and wants for their theology.

because they kept the historical kowledge they had no idea about, does not discount how unique the legend was or how teh theology taught morals

sotto voce · 05-04-2012, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

I do believe the mesopotamian myths are the source of the Noah myth. I think it has a historical core, perhaps Ziusudra is the closest to the truth, but Noah is largely embellished.

There's not much point to the story, then.

False bud

completely wrong

israeli's used this as allegory and through metophor's and parables rewrote the whole legend to meet their personal needs and wants for their theology.

So they knew that Jesus would die on a cross to atone for the sins of the whole world. Pretty smart, those 'Israelis'.

outhouse · 05-04-2012, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

I disagree with said person.

no one really disputes the attested flood of 2900 BC. As far as I know you only have one person [MacDonald] stating he's not sure about he flood. Everyone else is fine with the data.

MacDonald isn’t questioning the existence of the 2900 BCE flood, he is questioning the ability to tie the fable to this one flood.

As far as I know, Samuel Noah Kramer never firmly tied the flood fable back to this one dated flood of 2900 BCE. And he did like comparing/dissecting Biblical parallels. In summary, I don’t see your surety in the archeological world.

Author unmentioned, but appears to be a fairly professional site:
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLi...tamiaSumer.htm

Jona Lendering:
http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/flood/flood5.html

Quote:

This suggests that the rulers before the Flood can be dated to Early Dynastic I, and the Deluge, accordingly, to c.2750. The Šuruppak flood fits this date, and it is perhaps not a coincidence that the hero of Eridu Genesis, the Epic of Atrahasis, and the Epic of Gilgameš is a king of Šuruppak. It is likely, therefore, that the event that is behind the myth of the Great Flood can be dated to the end of Early Dynastic I period.

Thanks for the extra info.

Im sure about this because we had a real event and mythology created placing a man who possibly lived at that exact time.

with history this is as good as it gets going back 5000 years. its amazing we know as much as we do on this topic.

remember right wing theist will fight this to preserve their YEC view's. So for me to make my choice. I have read as much as possible on this looking at the whole volume of work done before I followed this view.

outhouse · 05-04-2012, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

I do believe the mesopotamian myths are the source of the Noah myth. I think it has a historical core, perhaps Ziusudra is the closest to the truth, but Noah is largely embellished.

Once you have the concept of flood, a great flood follows naturally. Whoever wrote the original story might have had some actual event in mind, but the writers that followed might have had different ones.

In any case, it may be useful to consult the asteroid sluts about the

Flood_myth

Of course, one cannot discuss the Burckle Crater without mentioning the

Holocene_Impact_Working_Group

This seems to be a serious group to me, unfortunately for the legitmate scientists, they have a bunch of crazy flood believers distorting whatever they are trying to do.

There was some interesting bullshit that came out in 2008 about the Köfels impact event

Quote:

The Köfels landslide was a huge mountain rockslide (a Sturzstrom[wp]) that occurred in the Austrian Alps about 9800 years ago. Some of its features mystified geologists for quite some time. One hypothesis was that it had been caused by an asteroid impact - a Köfels impact event - but more recent research has rejected the idea. This didn't stop a pair of British engineers from publishing a book that claims that a) it was an asteroid impact, b) it inspired a lot of myths, and c) it was recorded on an ancient Sumerian clay tablet.

It was a pretty short jump from the Sumerian tablet to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Decoded: The clay tablet that tells how an asteroid destroyed Sodom 5,000 years ago

Remarkable how such a seemingly plausible idea could become so fucked up.

LOl the burkle crater is such a joke. It has never been dated and the chevrons thousands of miles away they are guessing at as well.

there not only NOT backed by onyone in the scientific community, they are laughed at.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.