ziffel

This has been a wonderful thread to read, Logos, and I thank you for sharing in your loss, and grief. Not because I revel in the grief of others, but because this represents, IMV, incredible honesty.

I think you are so very fortunate to have had a grandfather that brings about a response such as you had when he passed. I have been enamored of the ideas of WW2 for most of my life, and I make it a point to shake every vet's hand when I meet one. I've been fortunate enough to meet several men who fought in the very battle represented by Spielberg's opening scene in Saving Private Ryan. One of these men was a Congressional Medal of Honor winner. I was in awe! I'm like you. I try not to see "some old man with a cane", but rather the guy who stormed the beach at Normandy, or who worked hard for 50 years to help his family, and society.

Anyway, I know how you feel. My father died on March 13th, 1995 of a sudden brain aneurysm. He was not just my dad, but probably my best friend at the time. It was like getting hit by a truck. It is pain I still feel twinges of
to this day.

You expressed the cold, heartless nature of this universe. I see the same thing, and agree that our atheism doesn't seem to offer us much (any) comfort in times like this, and it's understandable to long for the consolation that believers have. But I do not feel that we are entirely without hope. I honestly believe that there may well be "something more" to all of this. There is SO much we don't know about our universe. I in no way believe in any of the mythological nonsense of Christianity, or any personalized "old man in the sky" type religious stuff, but we are just at the beginining. We are just now finding out how our universe works, and we know that it is wondrous, and awesome. I just think there's a possibility that there may be something great and "beyond" about it that we are not yet seeing.

At any rate, I'm sorry for your loss, and I offer my condolences. I went through the immense pain, and my best advice is to keep doing what you're doing. Grieving openly, and leaning on others, and expressing yourself.

Lógos Sokratikós

Well, I guess there's no debate! Atheism sucks, kind of. But it requires and pushes you to greater wisdom than comfortable beliefs in joyous afterlife can, by confronting you with cold, hard reality.

Reality bites, and non-belief is just the wake up call.



... although you do want to smash the damn alarm clock once in a while!
Lógos Sokratikós

TheBear

Sorry for your loss, Lógos. How old was your grandfather?

Classical

Today is the first time I've peeped into this thread.

First, I feel so badly for you and I'm glad that you allowed yourself to cry the way you felt it. I'd give you a big Classical hug if I could.

It's probably pretty obvious to folks here that my sensitive nature is what has driven me away from hard atheism and more towards mysticism, where it's not quite as cold, dark and bleak as the mindset you are describing. When one of my best friends died of cancer last year, I felt like you did, but I don't know if I would feel that way now. I realize I may be just fooling myself to think the way I do, but I feel much more comfortable this way, emotionally and intellectually.

And if I am fooling myself, it won't matter after I'm dead. No?

Classical

Howard

I can understand people taking comfort in the idea of an afterlife, especially when they lose loved ones, but some of us simply do not have the capacity for what we see as just so much self-delusion and wishful thinking.

I believe it is inherent in the nature of people to either believe or disbelieve, and no amount of argumentation or rationalization will convince or unconvince anyone… well, very few anyway. Ultimately, we have to be true to our own natures, and, comforting though it might be, I simply cannot conceive of any sort of life after death. When your brain dies, all that is you goes with it. Spirits and souls have no more existential credibility than leprechauns and pixies.

Let me also say that I’m sorry for your loss but as long as you keep your grandfather’s memory, a part of him will live in you.

Jobar

Deepest sympathy, Logos.

But it isn't atheism that sucks- it's reality. Theism sucks just as bad; its only advantage is that it puts rose colored blinders on you, and tries to tell you that the pain isn't real, and the loss isn't permanent.

Yeah, sometimes it's tempting to choose the soothing lie over the painful truth. But averaged out over a lifetime, truth wins; you get to live life in full, unblinded.

You might want to go to the memorial thread at the top of the Lounge forum, and read some of the works of WinAce. He faced his own death with strength and nobility, and eyes wide open. I think that beats the denial and fake hopefulness of religious belief, hands down.

Lógos Sokratikós

We do what we can. We only have one life, and so I believe we should make the best of it. If atheism is too cold for you, find warmth in mysticism. In hard times it's best to go where it's warm and comfy, like that "childhood safe place" I talked about earlier, the place where I cannot go back to.

That's why I see neo-paganism in a positive light. It's not that old superstitious polytheistic religion of antiquity (as superstitious as modern Catholicism is, with all its trinkets and holy places and formulæ). It's more Nature worship than anything else, which is beautiful and healthy. Nature is something that everybody knows is real, it's there and it's salutary. Neo-pagan magick is akin to childhood story magic -they're not going to swindle you out of your money. It's true re ligare, connecting with what has been untied from you.

Religare is one thing that's missing from Western atheism. Atheism has been too involved in its fight against fundamentalism and inquisition. Isn't it time we turned our backs from poisonous fundamentalism and focused more on ourselves?

One of the features of healthy functioning is cyclic engaging and disengaging. Wake-sleep, work-rest, toil-play, love others - self indulge, etc.

Pagans are also with us on this anti-fundamentalism boat, but they also have time for the healthy rituals, lighting of candles, get togethers, etc. Outer growth without forgetting inner growth. Symbols, rituals and, yes, 'mysticism' as you call it.

That's why I think atheism looks cold and bleak. We've focused on wiping out destructive religiosity and have done nothing to create new tradition.

Humans are spiritual creatures, meaning individuals needing deep interconnectedness. We infidels must see this, so we can really tap the very essence of us homines sapientes, and succeed at our goals in favor of humanity.

ELECTROGOD

Actually, after being raised as a believer I find that the lack of belief in gods does not suck. It made dealing with death in family/friends much easier as having an understanding that things are they way the are because of certain reasons instead of unknowable reasons coming from a "god" to which you are left asking "why".

Lógos Sokratikós

Interesting and comforting. Thank you for helping me see the cup half full, which compared to the nothingness that we could have been, is infinitely large.

Thank you all.

Atheism doesn't suck ...as long as we can see the fullness of the cup, which is not always obvious!

EthnAlln

Sorry for your loss, Logos.

Death is difficult for everyone. Read A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis to see how shaken he was by his wife's death. And he has been described as "the most converted man I ever knew" by one of his acquaintances.

On the other hand, when you see the way the world is going, you can't help thinking that one of these days, the dead will be the lucky ones. One thing is sure, death puts an end to suffering. Once you are gone, it doesn't matter even if the sun goes nova.