aa5874

Please, your imagination appears to be out of control. Who hired the services of a professional codex scribe??? When did that happen???

Duvduv

AA, you're right. I should have realized that the codex product appeared out of thin air.

Toto

Scribes were common - they were often slaves. All of the descriptions of early Christians indicate that there were some wealthy people involved, so it is not out of place to think that someone could have hired a scribe.

Adam

You're saying the above is true
AND
You're saying that the lack of historical references to it
PROVES
That that small persecuted underground pre-Constantine sect
NEVER EXISTED?

And maybe the fear of exposure would explain why no identifying names or places were affixed? You can't have it both ways.

Duvduv

No, I find it stretching credulity that it could be argued that in the 2nd century there was a flourishing but tiny persecuted sect (although of course there were many assorted sects at the same time) that had the wherewithal to have a quality scribe produce a 100 page codex for their internal use (that would have had to have been reproduced for all centers of the persecuted tiny sect).
I suppose Kim and Griffin could argue about this contextual issue as well.

Adam

If we assume (as most people do) that at Year 20 of post-Crucifixion Christianity at all its locations existed with no written gospels, then we could assume that at Year 60 it could still get by at most locations without written gospels. If only a few locations had these written gospels (in the midst of the Domitian Persecution in the 90's CE), they would not have not have come to the attention of historians. The number of copies of gospels would have had to have been minimal in the first generations or more uncontrolled variations of texts would have gotten out. Each gospel went through several decades of development, yet no sections of more than a dozen verses got into dispute for inclusion. There was not a lot of copying going on until about Year 150 (180 CE).

Oral Tradition that got Christians through the early years thus continued to be important even when written texts existed elsewhere. The habit of teaching orally probably continued even when written gospels became available locally, thus many of the 2nd Century allusions to the gospels are not exact.

Not very well developed by Glenn Davis, but
here are comparisons between Justin and each of the gospels.

aa5874

Presumptions and Assumptions are worthless when you have no evidence from antiquity.

Duvduv

Fortunately for our friend AA, evidence from antiquity is what he considers evidence, even if he also considers it unreliable, and even if there is no evidence that such evidence is the kind of evidence that would prove his points. The Church historians pronounce that Justin Martyr was from mid 2nd century despite no evidence for that at all (Mark Twain could have done a far better job than either Justin or Eusebius). And AA deems it correct just as stated by the biased church historians.

And on and on it goes. Questioning or challenging the "evidence" of AA is verboten especially on contextual grounds.

And so it goes...........

aa5874

You consider your imagination a reliable source. Please, the History of the Church as described by Eusebius is NOT Compatible with Justin but it is virtually identical to Irenaeus' "Against Heresies"

Please, it is the WRITTEN statements of antiquity that matters NOT what you imagine.

Justin Martyr's writings are COMPATIBLE with the dated DATED Texts and Manuscripts which show a BIG BLACK HOLE for the Activities of the disciples and Paul.

ALL writings that are CONTRARY to the DATED Text can be considered to be historically and chronologically bogus and this includes writings attributed to:

Ignatius

Clement of Rome

Polycarp

Irenaeus

Tertullian

Clement of Alexandria.

The Pauline writings.

Acts of the Apostles

Adam

ah, aa!
We DO have evidence from antiquity. You know quite well that there were no gospels in the 1st Century. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Therefore, Christians can get along without gospels.

Catch-22 got YOU here!