gentho

Spin,

What makes it obvious that Paul doesn’t support the statement, “for there is one god, the father, … and one lord, Jesus Christ.� What is this Trinitarian “doublethink?� I’m not quite sure what you mean when you are talking about these issues because I’m new to much of this. Thanks for helping me understand.


Doctor X,

Where in the NT does there arise problems for the Christian fundamentalist? And I’ve been largely focusing on Exodus, are there also other places in the OT where polytheism is obviously there? In a seminar at my university I found myself surrounded by Christian fundamentalists, and although they had no defense to my claim that the Bible is largely polytheistic besides “No…It’s monotheistic!� I still would like to further understand the entire argument. Also, who is the author of The Mythic Past?

Doctor X

gentho:

Almost a thread in and of itself. For starters compare the birth narratives which require two different dates about ten years appart, the conflicting birth narratives, and my personal favorite: Judas hanging himself or exploding.

A lot. There is that Deuteronomy passage I think I posted where YHWH is subordinate to El. I thought I had posted a big list of psalms . . . okay:

Ps 82
Ps 8:6
Ps 29:1
Ps 86.8
Ps 89.7
Ps 95:3
Ps 97:7
Ps 135:5
Ps 138:1
Ps 148

I wrote "Thompson," can you not read? [Stop that!--Ed.] Okay . . . okay. . . .


Thompson T. The Mythic Past: Biblical Archaeology and the Myth of Israel

Looks like you can get it at a bargain price.

--J.D.

Rymmie1981

HeheheheheemuwahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

What is the perpetually medicated, ex-christian soldier laughing about in his most evil laugh? He is laughing because his mind has cleared for a single moment this day and remembered one of his OT Hebrew language courses.

There are THREE words for god in the OT.

Elohim(El, El Shaddai) This one is has been debated endlessly on these fora. I feel no need to elaborate.

Jehovah(Yahweh, YHWH) and the million or so variants of this name, e.g.: Jehovah Jirah, Jehovah Nissi, Jehovah Elohim, etc. Also debated endlessly, no elaboration...

And finally, Adonai. I have not yet seen this word trotted out especially considering its translation. LORD(Jehovah,etc.) God(Elohim, etc.) Lord(Adonai) It suddenly came to me that there were two types of lords in the OT that I had forgotten about. Let us commence with the schooling of the word Adonai and its applications in the most holy scriptures(hehehehe...must stop before its too late...heheh...and, I'm good)

There are other words, they and their definitions can be found at this link.

Now that its usage is sufficiently established, let us examine where it is used somewhat deeper.

Psa. 86:8 Among the gods(elohim) [there is] none like unto thee, O Lord(adonai); neither [are there any works] like unto thy works.

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing [them] rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

Gen 19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords(adon), turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

Gen 23:5 And the children of Heth answered Abraham, saying unto him,

Gen 23:6 Hear us, my lord(adon): thou [art] a mighty prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.

hmm, do I see a pattern here? YHWH was the plural adonai. The angels that saved Lot were the singular adon. Abraham was adon. If you do a small search you'll find numerous references where idividuals of great power are called adon throughout the OT. Adonai was almost exclusively reserved for the Big Guy. Since adonai and jehovah are synonymous with kurios, as per Easton's, I thought it would be fun to see where kurios pops up in the NT. I promise that my Uber Cross of Doom is almost out of ammo, but this is just a lot of fun.

Mat. 6:24 No man can serve two masters(kurios): for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Rev. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev. 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir(kurios), thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There are more, but I even barrel fishing gets weary after a while. To summarize, there are elohim, of which YHWH is one, but he is also of the adonai. Some angels, Abraham, and many others throughout the OT were all Adonai. Not all Adonai were Elohim, and not all Elohim were Adonai. But, as seen in my NT verses, mammon is equal to God because they are both kurios, and therefore Adonai. The elders around the throne in Revelations were also Adonai because they were kurios, too.

I believe I have at least proved the polytheistic side of the bible, as well as shown more inconsistencies. As for the claim that Adonai and kurios apply to men as well as God, which I know will come soon, usage proves meaning as much as context. If I say "fuck this" and "fuck that", then when I say "let's all fuck this thing together", chances are the f-word(hehe ) means the same thing in all places. Context is more useful for learning the meaning of word you haven't seen than learning the meaning of a word you've seen several thousand times before.

You know, as an aside, I really stay true to my preacher's roots. I can't seem to shut up, even when I've proved my point. What? Damn. My Uber Cross of Doom is out. See you when it recharges.

gentho

True or False:

"The Bible is predominantly a polytheistic text."

Rymmie1981

hmm, I've tried to stay in the OT, but you really want me to, I'll get into the NT and all of its teachings about us becoming little versions of Jeebus. But, yes, the Bible as a whole unit is full of polytheistic references.

gentho

I think it's a good idea to open a new thread for polytheism in the NT, to separate the discussions somewhat.

Thread: Polytheism in the NT

But of course that doesn't mean discussion in this thread has to cease.

LP675

I did, but both of you were waffling so badly and avoiding the issue I couldn’t work up the motivation to go thought responding to both of your posts.

Finally! I will take this as an admission of my point (that OT affirmations of “gods� existing are no problem for Christian theology). It is no problem because the NT gives further information on the nature of these “gods� (or explains them away if you like). It is of course for the Christian not a mater of embarrassment (or not being embarrassed), but of what the entire word of God says on the matter. If the word of God said that there were many uncreated “gods� of the same nature as the one true God, then that is what we would believe.

I suppose I got the idea from references to ‘alpha and omega’, all things (including other spiritual realities) being created by him, and the like. What it changes is that there is only one true God, and other “gods� are in another category i.e. created beings (the same one humans are in).

Lol! The bible describes it, why should I have to explain the significance of it? God can and apparently does hold some sort of court with his creatures. Why should the fact he holds some sort of court present any sort of problem?

No it wasn’t. You may recall the major reason was Trinitarian debate is irrelevant when it comes to the question of whether OT affirmations of the existence of “gods� are a challenge to Christian theology.

Doctor X

I am sorry, I thought someone posted something. . .

. . . I only see "waffle."

--J.D.

LP675

hehehhe

spin

But you have no point.

{... Edited to add, ... other than to turn a blind eye to implications of the conflict between borrowed underbelly, and later borrowed superstructure.}


spin