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Old 04-04-2012, 07:20 AM   #221
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That doesn't mean that the MJ position is anti-religious.

What's so religious about believing that HJ was an ordinary if inspired human, a sans-miraculous apocalyptic preacher that was crucified?
One way or the other, the MJ position fits and serves an anti-religious perspective, and that point is a plausible explanation for why mythicism is almost exclusively the domain of atheists.
But the important, if not crucial point, is surely that regardless of what motivations are behind the MJ or the HJ position the truth of falsity, strength or weakness of both is independent of those motivations and ought to be assessed purely on the grounds of the arguments pro and con?

Matt
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:24 AM   #222
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Just to provide a bit of balance I would say that there are a large number of Jews who subscribe to or are at least open to the MJ point of view. Not Christians but surely not atheists either. I don't know if the same is true of people of other religions but it is true of Jews.

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Old 04-04-2012, 07:34 AM   #223
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One way or the other, the MJ position fits and serves an anti-religious perspective, and that point is a plausible explanation for why mythicism is almost exclusively the domain of atheists.
But the important, if not crucial point, is surely that regardless of what motivations are behind the MJ or the HJ position the truth of falsity, strength or weakness of both is independent of those motivations and ought to be assessed purely on the grounds of the arguments pro and con?

Matt
Yes, absolutely.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:49 AM   #224
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But the important, if not crucial point, is surely that regardless of what motivations are behind the MJ or the HJ position the truth of falsity, strength or weakness of both is independent of those motivations and ought to be assessed purely on the grounds of the arguments pro and con?

Matt
Yes, absolutely.
Then please stop bringing up your amateur explanation for people's motives.

Can we put this fake issue to rest?
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:56 AM   #225
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I believe in some subtle way that some entity we call "God" exists.
Kapyong
How about :

God is a cry of human existence: for to know one exists is to exist alone and to exist alone is impossible.

Best,
Jiri
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:00 AM   #226
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That doesn't mean that the MJ position is anti-religious.

What's so religious about believing that HJ was an ordinary if inspired human, a sans-miraculous apocalyptic preacher that was crucified?
One way or the other, the MJ position fits and serves an anti-religious perspective, and that point is a plausible explanation for why mythicism is almost exclusively the domain of atheists.
And so it could be that atheists, on this one point anyway, are more insightful than believers.

Maybe the church could use a few atheists...
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:34 AM   #227
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God is a cry of human existence: for to know one exists is to exist alone and to exist alone is impossible.
This sort of gobbledygook is motivated by some people's inability to accept, let alone condone, pure atheism. There must be *some* kind of God, some higher power, some inner state of being we can acknowledge, no matter how bizarre or far-fetched the description we give it.

I believe that some non-Christians hold onto an historical Jesus because even if he is not the son of some non-existent personal God, he can nevertheless be someone who was in touch with that higher power or inner state of being, and so are we vicariously through him.

But it's all neuronal impulses jumping our synapses. Why not celebrate what it is really like to be human, and how much evolution has accomplished? Myths like the historical Jesus only get in the way of truly understanding ourselves and the universe we're a part of.

And stop labelling anything "God".

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Old 04-04-2012, 10:55 AM   #228
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Yes, absolutely.
Then please stop bringing up your amateur explanation for people's motives.

Can we put this fake issue to rest?
You stand staunchly (and yet alternatively) behind two conflicting positions:

(1) That there is no evidence that mythicists are motivated by an anti-religious agenda, and
(2) it is a fake issue that doesn't matter.

You switch to position #2 after you lose the argument for position #1. At least position #2 is subjective and easy to stand behind, but there are helluva lot of debates that go on in this forum that don't matter to me, and here is how I deal with my ambivalence: I stay out of those debates. Not only are those debates irrelevant to me, but I don't even care whether or not they take place.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:57 AM   #229
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One way or the other, the MJ position fits and serves an anti-religious perspective, and that point is a plausible explanation for why mythicism is almost exclusively the domain of atheists.
And so it could be that atheists, on this one point anyway, are more insightful than believers.

Maybe the church could use a few atheists...
Still no disagreement!
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:07 AM   #230
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Abe, when Galileo or Copernicus researched the heavens and came up with the theory that instead of an earth-centered universe we lived in a sun-centered universe (at least in our own neighborhood), did they have an anti-religious agenda? After all, they were destroying the reliability of the Bible in its recounting of how Joshua made the sun stand still in its course around the earth so he could conquer Jericho. Did they hate Christianity because they proved the Church to be wrong and the Bible to be false in its geocentric views?

Or could they see that, regardless of the effect it would have on the Church and Christian faith in the Bible, it was better to understand the workings of the world we live in than to continue to model our thinking and our culture on something they concluded was false?

If you had lived in the 16th-17th centuries, would you be dumping all over Copernicus and Galileo on the FRDB, and dismissing their theories as anti-Christian hatred, appealing to the longstanding authority of Ptolemy?

I bet you would!

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