Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 03-22-2009, 01:11 PM

If Philo of Alexandria, c20 BCE-50 CE, wrote about the Essenes before Josephus how is it the Essenes can be an invention of Josephus?

The "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus was believed to have been written about 75 CE, about 25 years after the death of Philo.

maryhelena · 03-22-2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

If Philo of Alexandria, c20 BCE-50 CE, wrote about the Essenes before Josephus how is it the Essenes can be an invention of Josephus?

The "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus was believed to have been written about 75 CE, about 25 years after the death of Philo.

Josephus invented the Essenes by giving them a 'historical' existence. Philo did not do that i.e. he gave no date to his Essenes, he did not place his Essenes within a historical setting. Philo' Essenes are a philosophical construct, a vision of an Ideal society.

What Josephus has done with Philo' Essenes, giving a philosophical Ideal a 'historical' existence, is no different to what the gospel writers have done with their mythological Jesus i.e. the gospel writers have taken OT prophecies about the Messianic Ideal and given them, the Messiah, a 'historical' existence.

Keep in mind that Josephus is not simply a historian. He tells us that he is able to predict the future - i.e. his prophecy regarding Vespasian.

aa5874 · 03-22-2009, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

If Philo of Alexandria, c20 BCE-50 CE, wrote about the Essenes before Josephus how is it the Essenes can be an invention of Josephus?

The "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus was believed to have been written about 75 CE, about 25 years after the death of Philo.

Josephus invented the Essenes by giving them a 'historical' existence. Philo did not do that i.e. he gave no date to his Essenes, he did not place his Essenes within a historical setting. Philo' Essenes are a philosophical construct, a vision of an Ideal society.

Your statement is completely erroneous. Philo placed the Essenes in a historical setting.

Just read Philo's Hypothetica 11

Quote:

(11.1) But our lawgiver trained an innumerable body of his pupils to partake in those things, who are called Essenes, being, as I imagine, honoured with this appellation because of their exceeding holiness. And they dwell in many cities of Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous communities.

(11.2) And this sect of them is not an hereditary of family connexion; for family ties are not spoken of with reference to acts voluntarily performed; but it is adopted because of their admiration for virtue and love of gentleness and humanity.

(11.3) At all events, there are no children among the Essenes, no, nor any youths or persons only just entering upon manhood; since the dispositions of all such persons are unstable and liable to change, from the imperfections incident to their age, but they are all full-grown men, and even already declining towards old age, such as are no longer carried away by the impetuosity of their bodily passions, and are not under the influence of the appetites, but such as enjoy a genuine freedom, the only true and real liberty.

(11.4) And a proof of this is to be found in their life of perfect freedom; no one among them ventures at all to acquire any property whatever of his own, neither house, nor slave, nor farm, nor flocks and herds, nor any thing of any sort which can be looked upon as the fountain or provision of riches; but they bring them together into the middle as a common stock, and enjoy one common general benefit from it all.

(11.5) And they all dwell in the same place, making clubs, and societies, and combinations, and unions with one another, and doing every thing throughout their whole lives with reference to the general advantage;

(11.6) but the different members of this body have different employments in which they occupy themselves, and labour without hesitation and without cessation, making no mention of either cold, or heat, or any changes of weather or temperature as an excuse for desisting from their tasks. But before the sun rises they betake themselves to their daily work, and they do not quit it till some time after it has set, when they return home rejoicing no less than those who have been exercising themselves in gymnastic contests;

(11.7) for they imagine that whatever they devote themselves to as a practice is a sort of gymnastic exercise of more advantage to life, and more pleasant both to soul and body, and of more enduring benefit and equability, than mere athletic labours, inasmuch as such toil does not cease to be practised with delight when the age of vigour of body is passed;

(11.8) for there are some of them who are devoted to the practice of agriculture, being skilful in such things as pertain to the sowing and cultivation of lands; others again are shepherds, or cowherds, and experienced in the management of every kind of animal; some are cunning in what relates to swarms of bees;

(11.9) others again are artisans and handicraftsmen, in order to guard against suffering from the want of anything of which there is at times an actual need; and these men omit and delay nothing, which is requisite for the innocent supply of the necessaries of life.

(11.10) Accordingly, each of these men, who differ so widely in their respective employments, when they have received their wages give them up to one person who is appointed as the universal steward and general manager; and he, when he has received the money, immediately goes and purchases what is necessary and furnishes them with food in abundance, and all other things of which the life of mankind stands in need.

(11.11) And those who live together and eat at the same table are day after day contented with the same things, being lovers of frugality and moderation, and averse to all sumptuousness and extravagance as a disease of both mind and body.

(11.12) And not only are their tables in common but also their dress; for in the winter there are thick cloaks found, and in the summer light cheap mantles, so that whoever wants one is at liberty without restraint to go and take whichever kind he chooses; since what belongs to one belongs to all, and on the other hand whatever belongs to the whole body belongs to each individual.

(11.13) And again, if any one of them is sick he is cured from the common resources, being attended to by the general care and anxiety of the whole body. Accordingly the old men, even if they happen to be childless, as if they were not only the fathers of many children but were even also particularly happy in an affectionate offspring, are accustomed to end their lives in a most happy and prosperous and carefully attended old age, being looked upon by such a number of people as worthy of so much honour and provident regard that they think themselves bound to care for them even more from inclination than from any tie of natural affection.

(11.14) Again, perceiving with more than ordinary acuteness and accuracy, what is alone or at least above all other things calculated to dissolve such associations, they repudiate marriage; and at the same time they practise continence in an eminent degree; for no one of the Essenes ever marries a wife, because woman is a selfish creature and one addicted to jealousy in an immoderate degree, and terribly calculated to agitate and overturn the natural inclinations of a man, and to mislead him by her continual tricks;

(11.15) for as she is always studying deceitful speeches and all other kinds of hypocrisy, like an actress on the stage, when she is alluring the eyes and ears of her husband, she proceeds to cajole his predominant mind after the servants have been deceived.

(11.16) And again, if there are children she becomes full of pride and all kinds of license in her speech, and all the obscure sayings which she previously meditated in irony in a disguised manner she now begins to utter with audacious confidence; and becoming utterly shameless she proceeds to acts of violence, and does numbers of actions of which every one is hostile to such associations;

(11.17) for the man who is bound under the influence of the charms of a woman, or of children, by the necessary ties of nature, being overwhelmed by the impulses of affection, is no longer the same person towards others, but is entirely changed, having, without being aware of it, become a slave instead of a free man.

(11.18) This now is the enviable system of life of these Essenes, so that not only private individuals but even mighty kings, admiring the men, venerate their sect, and increase their dignity and majesty in a still higher degree by their approbation and by the honours which they confer on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

What Josephus has done with Philo' Essenes, giving a philosophical Ideal a 'historical' existence, is no different to what the gospel writers have done with their mythological Jesus i.e. the gospel writers have taken OT prophecies about the Messianic Ideal and given them, the Messiah, a 'historical' existence.

There is nothing mythical or philosophical at all about the Essenes in Philo or Josephus. They both described the earthly living of the Essenes.

There were many persons regarded as prophets in Jewish tradition, like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and many others. Josephus simply wrote about Essenes who were regarded as prophets, or persons who believed they could predict the future.

Quote:

Keep in mind that Josephus is not simply a historian. He tells us that he is able to predict the future - i.e. his prophecy regarding Vespasian.

A person who believes he can predict the future is not a myth, perhaps a psychic or a prophet.

And, if Josephus lived until around 133 CE, he would realise that his prediction was not true, he was a false prophet. Simon barcochebas was believed to be the Messiah.

And if you read Acts of the Apostles, it will be noticed that the author did write that the apostles were engaged in "Essenes-like" mode of living.

Acts 2.44-45

Quote:

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Ac 4:34 -

Quote:

Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold...

It may be that the authors of the NT refused to mentioned the word "Essenes" because they wanted to distort the true history of Jesus believers, giving the false impression that Essenes were Jesus believers.

maryhelena · 03-23-2009, 05:39 AM

[quote=aa5874;5861282]

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Josephus invented the Essenes by giving them a 'historical' existence. Philo did not do that i.e. he gave no date to his Essenes, he did not place his Essenes within a historical setting. Philo' Essenes are a philosophical construct, a vision of an Ideal society.

Your statement is completely erroneous. Philo placed the Essenes in a historical setting.

Quote:

Rachel Elior

"However intriguing and interesting as these descriptions might be, we can not substantiate them on any historical or philological evidence: no Hebrew or Aramaic text before the Common Era or in the first century of the Common Era reveals any data about this perfect group that lived according to the highest ideals of freedom, equality, communality, modesty, chastity and liberty. No Hebrew or Aramaic text mentioned such a faultless group numbering thousands of people spread all over the country. No Jewish source written in Hebrew or Aramaic ever mentioned the existence of this celibate group that lived in opposition to the biblical commandment which demanded marriage and procreation from all members of Jewish society. No Hebrew source mentions a group that rejected slavery, denounced weapons, and resented commerce. No Hebrew or Aramaic source is familiar with the word Essenes or Essaioi."

Unless you can provide historical evidence for the existence of Philo' Essenes - I'm happy to side with Rachel Elior on this matter......

aa5874 · 03-23-2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Unless you can provide historical evidence for the existence of Philo' Essenes - I'm happy to side with Rachel Elior on this matter......

But, regardless of the side you are on, your claim that the Essenes were described mythically is completely erroneous.

Philo wrote about them as living on earth.

Josephus wrote about the Essenes and even mentioned some by name.

Pliny the Elder wrote about the Essenes and even mentioned the geographic location where some of them were living.

The author Acts wrote that early Jesus believers were engaged in a manner of living which was similar to the Essenes.

Your erroneous statements about Josephus and Philo do not resolve any matter with respect to the Essenes.

andrewcriddle · 03-23-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your statement is completely erroneous. Philo placed the Essenes in a historical setting.

Unless you can provide historical evidence for the existence of Philo' Essenes - I'm happy to side with Rachel Elior on this matter......

I agree with aa here. Philo does place the Essenes in a historical setting. Whether or not Rachel Elior is right to regard this historical setting as implausible is a separate issue.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 03-23-2009, 03:44 PM

It feels as if xianity is a conjoining of separate Judaic strands - the pacifist monastic Essene group described by Philo - and I repeat - attested to by very clear archaeology, a Pharisaic and a Zealot group - "Jesus" (more than one?) at different times and in different Gospels represents all these groups - Sermon on Mount, Apocalyptic stuff, jot and tittle, drinking with tax gatherers.

Later on a word worshipping doctrinal group also joins the party resulting in the chaos of xianities we see now, and have seen throughout its history - various monastic orders, gnostics, Quakers, Orthodox, Catholic etc.

Clivedurdle · 03-23-2009, 03:48 PM

I would take the sermon of the mount and the story in Acts of sharing everything as evidence of the Essenes - these were not ideas brought to us by the god Jesus but pre-existing ideas copied from existing groups.

Might the term Essene have been edited out of the New Testament and replaced by the god Jesus?

Clivedurdle · 03-23-2009, 03:53 PM

Wiki is interesting

Quote:

Elior is the John and Golda Cohen Professor of Jewish Philosophy and Jewish Mystical Thought at the Hebrew University, where she has taught since 1978. She earned her PhD Summa cum Laude in 1976. Her specialties are early Jewish mysticism, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Messianism, Sabbatianism, Hasidism, Chabad,[2] [3] Frankism and the role of women in Jewish culture. She has been a visiting professor at Princeton University, UCL, Yeshiva University, the University of Tokyo and the University of Michigan.

Criticism and controversy

Her theory of the origins of mysticism in the priestly class has been challenged by Prof. Yehuda Liebes of the Hebrew University,[4] and her understanding of the ancient calendar was rejected by Sacha Stern. Eibert Tigchelaar noted that her examples have a "lack of historical specificity that are disturbing and frustrating."[5] She has been defended by Joseph Dan.[6] Princeton professor Peter Schaefer says she blurs distinctions between texts and periods, and is not sensitive to important nuances. He also notes that her views of angels at Qumran and the calendar are wrong.[7] Prof Martha Himmelfarb finds Elior's work "simply untenable".[8] Elior creates tenuous links, historical connections without a basis, and sees things that just are "not there."[9]
Elior claims that the Essenes, the supposed authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls never existed. She contends that the Essenes were really the renegade sons of Zadok, a priestly caste banished from the Temple of Jerusalem by Greek rulers in 2nd century BC She conjectures that the scrolls were taken with them when they were banished. "In Qumran, the remnants of a huge library were found," Elior says, with some of the early Hebrew texts dating back to the 2nd century BC. Until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the earliest known version of the Old Testament dated back to the 9th century AD. The scrolls attest to a biblical priestly heritage," says Elior, who speculates that the scrolls were hidden in Qumran for safekeeping.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Elior

maryhelena · 03-24-2009, 03:15 AM

Historical? Surely, for something to be deemed to be historical, it needs to have some evidence to back up the claim and needs to be dated. Philo’ Essenes have no date, no historical connection to anything whatsoever. Just because Philo placed his Essenes in Palestine does not make them historical - no more so than Mount Ararat confirms the existence of Noah and his Ark!

Below is a quote from Robert Eiseman on when the Essenes can be dated i.e. when they became, through Josephus, a ‘historical’ community.

Quote:

http://www.treeoflife.nu/essenes.eisenman

Dr. Robert H. Eisenman

“Now, when did the Essenes first appear in history? When do we first have some record of them? Forget the conflicting ideas of what the Dead Sea Scrolls might say chronologically, because no one agrees on those points, and in fact those points are not easily determined. But, when did they first appear? Well, in the works of Josephus is the first real mention of the Essenes. Of course, Philo also speaks of the Essenes, but he doesn’t mention the Essenes as early as Josephus does, even though he is a slightly older generation than Josephus. They’re contemporaries, but Josephus is a younger contemporary of Philo, maybe the next generation, 20 or 30 years later. But, even though Philo knows Essenes in Egypt, he doesn’t give us any date for their first appearance.

But Josephus actually speaks of a person called “Judas the Essene” in the second century BC. There he portrays him sort of like a fortune teller, someone who hangs around the establishment and tells, or makes prophecies, if you like, predictions, oracles about the future that are to some extent sycophantic, trying to play up to people, and others those that hang around. He is not what I would call an Essene, because I think there is a confusion of the term Essene (or Hasidim), and “Pharisee.”

If, as Josephus claims, his three Essene prophets were able to foretell certain historical events - why did not Philo make mention of this remarkable ability of the Essenes. Surely, such an ability would have given the Essenes in question a certain celebrity. The last prediction, by Simon the Essene in 6 CE, was a prediction that occurred within Philo’ own life time...............and yet, Philo remains silent.....Which does make the argument that the Essenes were a Josephan invention, that Josephus invented the Essenes when he made them ‘historical’, all the more compelling. Particularly when he did so after the death of Philo......hence Philo would have had no knowledge, or hearsay, regarding Josephus’ three Essene prophets.

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03-22-2009, 01:11 PM	#71
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	If Philo of Alexandria, c20 BCE-50 CE, wrote about the Essenes before Josephus how is it the Essenes can be an invention of Josephus? The "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus was believed to have been written about 75 CE, about 25 years after the death of Philo.

03-23-2009, 03:44 PM	#77
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	It feels as if xianity is a conjoining of separate Judaic strands - the pacifist monastic Essene group described by Philo - and I repeat - attested to by very clear archaeology, a Pharisaic and a Zealot group - "Jesus" (more than one?) at different times and in different Gospels represents all these groups - Sermon on Mount, Apocalyptic stuff, jot and tittle, drinking with tax gatherers. Later on a word worshipping doctrinal group also joins the party resulting in the chaos of xianities we see now, and have seen throughout its history - various monastic orders, gnostics, Quakers, Orthodox, Catholic etc.

03-23-2009, 03:48 PM	#78
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I would take the sermon of the mount and the story in Acts of sharing everything as evidence of the Essenes - these were not ideas brought to us by the god Jesus but pre-existing ideas copied from existing groups. Might the term Essene have been edited out of the New Testament and replaced by the god Jesus?

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