Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clouseau · 06-11-2007, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

And 'apostle' means messenger. Who's messenger?

That should read 'Whose messenger?'

Apologies for this unaccountable horror.

Chili · 06-11-2007, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

And 'apostle' means messenger. Who's messenger?

That should read 'Whose messenger?'

Apologies for this unaccountable horror.

Apostle means messenger? I always thought that they had a mind of their own, kind of like a converted shepherd called to be an apostle.

Solo · 06-11-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorathruster

In 520 A.D. an anonymous monk recorded the life of Saint Genevieve, who had died only ten years before that. In his account of her life, he describes how, when she ordered a cursed tree cut down, monsters sprang from it and breathed a fatal stench on many men for two hours; while she was sailing, eleven ships capsized, but at her prayers they were righted again spontaneously; she cast out demons, calmed storms, miraculously created water and oil from nothing before astonished crowds, healed the blind and lame, and several people who stole things from her actually went blind instead. No one wrote anything to contradict or challenge these claims, and they were written very near the time the events supposedly happened--by a religious man whom we suppose regarded lying to be a sin.

Early Religious writings were all correct, exact, specific and true??????????????

Dear friend, if you quote other people's wrtings do kindly give credit !

Jiri

Knupfer · 06-12-2007, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Newton's Cat,

Are you suggesting that all the text in red are later additions? I would quite agree with this. The text reads much more smoothly when we take them out.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newton's Cat

Romans

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Is that just your opinion or do you have proof? Have you seen and/or translated the original Hebrew and/or Greek texts?

Toto · 06-12-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knupfer

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Newton's Cat,

Are you suggesting that all the text in red are later additions? I would quite agree with this. The text reads much more smoothly when we take them out.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Is that just your opinion or do you have proof? Have you seen and/or translated the original Hebrew and/or Greek texts?

Gotcha there. You are confused. There is no original Hebrew text of the Epistle to the Romans.

And you will find the Greek text (in Latin characters) a few posts up.

PhilosopherJay · 06-12-2007, 05:48 PM

Hi Knupfer,

Do you know how to read or do you just write without reading? What theories of language and translation have you studied?

Sorry, not in a particularly good mood tonight,:frown:

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knupfer

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Newton's Cat,

Are you suggesting that all the text in red are later additions? I would quite agree with this. The text reads much more smoothly when we take them out.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Is that just your opinion or do you have proof? Have you seen and/or translated the original Hebrew and/or Greek texts?

Gundulf · 06-12-2007, 10:21 PM

Isn't this how Thomas Jefferson got his Bible?

Loomis · 06-13-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Get one of those "interlinear" translations (that include literal English glosses immediately under each Greek word). You will start to see that most of these references to Jesus/Christ are in distinct clauses that can be safely removed to make the flow of the sentences/argument easier to comprehend.

... go to a Jehovah's Witness kingdom hall one Sunday and ask to obtain a copy of their own Greek/English interlinear.

Hi Dave. :wave:

I enjoy reading your posts. But maybe I’m biased - I grew up in Warren.

Fyi, the links below are a reasonably good source for "interlinear" translations:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...brew_Index.htm

http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...reek_Index.htm

The only drawback might be that they are PDFs, but I actually like that.

gurugeorge · 06-13-2007, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

I have had grand plans to post the whole kit & caboodle on a Yahoo.groups page for about 6 years, including the Greek text with the appropriate notations along with English translations of same, but have been thwarted by overly demanding jobs. My profession (financial audits for insurance premium computation purposes) has been in flux for about the same period, and that has put pressures on some of us. The situation has recently changed, so hopefully...

I hope you do get round to it, as some others have expressed, there's a bizarre, disjointed quality to Paul's letters. Sometimes it seems like a human being (and quite an interesting human being) talking, sometimes it's just kind of "formal" language that seems peculiarly robotic. An analysis of the Greek along the lines you are talking about wouldn't be conclusive of anything, but would certainly be very interesting.

(My opinion is that Bruno Bauer/Detering were right, and extrapolating from what they say I think there was originally some kind of proto-Gnostic Hellenized Jewish movement that may or may not have been called "Christian", of whom Acts' "Simon Magus" was one of the most active "apostles", and that what we have as the letters of "Paul" are fragments of his writings overlaid with stuff that bring them more in line with a growing orthodoxy that was itself initially a relatively novel experiment of the Roman-Alexandrine bishops.)

Actually, a further thought:

It would be interesting to see to what extent the results tally or don't tally, of people who have been working on this independently - to start with, yourself and Newton's Cat. I'm sure there must be other nutcases in the world who have been doing something similar

Gundulf · 06-13-2007, 06:32 AM

Has anyone pointed out that Paul's greek was never claimed to be the most eloquent? He is often disjointed - heck, he has like a 5 chapter rabbit trail in 2 Corinthians; a 14 verse run-on sentence in Ephesians. Why would sticking in a bunch of disjointed subordinate clauses be out of the ordinary?

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06-12-2007, 10:21 PM	#37
Gundulf Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Spain Posts: 2,902	Isn't this how Thomas Jefferson got his Bible?

06-13-2007, 06:32 AM	#40
Gundulf Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Spain Posts: 2,902	Has anyone pointed out that Paul's greek was never claimed to be the most eloquent? He is often disjointed - heck, he has like a 5 chapter rabbit trail in 2 Corinthians; a 14 verse run-on sentence in Ephesians. Why would sticking in a bunch of disjointed subordinate clauses be out of the ordinary?

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