Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-15-2009, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

... Monotheism is also a scientific equation, same as MC2 and ToE.

What are you talking about? Perhaps this thread belongs in some other forum?

tradewinds · 08-15-2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor Q. Mada

Both or better all three of the Abrahamic religions .

What makes you say that Islam and Christianity are 'Abrahamic'? They do not follow Hebrew laws, and have no biological connection with Abraham or Moses. Consider this:

Europeans who begat christianity at no time followed any of the Hebrew laws - ever; not before they became christian or after. In fact they negated all laws which they did not want to follow, and added laws totally in contrast of the Hebrew bible.

The pre-Islamic Arabs never followed the Abrahamic or Mosaic beliefs, and also have no biological connection with Abraham. The Arab race is 2,500 years old and Abraham lived 4000 years ago - there were no Arabs in that 1,500 year period, nor did they follow Abrahamic laws in that time.

Both religions emerged thinking Israel was dead. They destroyed the Jewish homeland and proclaimed themselves owners of the land and religion. Both made demands and doctrines in total contradiction of the Hebrew bible and of their own doctrines, introducing chaos, insanity and mass murder wherever they went, and converting by force. There is nothing Abrahamic of both those religions.

Perhaps they were not called Arabs, but I would bet they were of the same ethnic stock. Consider Abraham traveled from Mesopotamia to north east on the Mediterranean sea, then to Egypt, then with Moses to what we would now call Palestine. It was all part of the Persian Empire east of Greece.

I would argue that this religion was always an Arabic monotheism

premjan · 08-15-2009, 07:19 PM

Semites, though not precisely all Arabs.

Neutral · 08-15-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Are Christianity and Islam Abrahamic?

First of all there is no honor at all to have any connection with this mythical figure you call Abraham but rather a shame IMO but historically speaking, both Christianity and Islam were off shots from the evil seed Judaism and to be off shot of something doesn’t mean that you have to be a mirror image of it but you start as an off shot then evolve in a different direction and this what happened with both Christianity and Islam.

adren@line · 08-15-2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by adren@line

Both are based on Judaism, so yes they are.

In actuality, it is wrong to see this as a Judaistic belief. Better, all three follow the one belief, in varrying and contradicting degrees. Monotheism is also a scientific equation, same as MC2 and ToE.

Monotheism is a regression from polytheism.

The latter was often based on natural elements and phenomenon, things that actually exist. Monotheism is the result of a primitive tribe demanding faith in a God that has no natural or rational basis.

Non-dualism and pantheism surpass both polytheism and monotheism. Atheism is an aside, the result of a more cynical and materialistic train of thought.

IamJoseph · 08-15-2009, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

... Monotheism is also a scientific equation, same as MC2 and ToE.

What are you talking about? Perhaps this thread belongs in some other forum?

Abraham came upon Monotheism before he was a Hebrew/Israelite/Jew. Thus it is not necessarilly a Jewish premise, but one which they took on board.

IamJoseph · 08-15-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Perhaps they were not called Arabs, but I would bet they were of the same ethnic stock.

Yes - only if this applies to everyone generically. No - if this applies to a definitive, identifiable group.

Quote:

Consider Abraham traveled from Mesopotamia to north east on the Mediterranean sea, then to Egypt, then with Moses to what we would now call Palestine.

There was no Arab group at this time, nor any area called Palestine pre-70 CE. The ancient Egyptians were not arab; the coptics are older than today's Arab race, being a definable and identifiable historical group - the same applies to Jews and Kurds - they predate the Arabs. Arab and Arabian are not the same: the greeks applied this name on a group 2,500 years ago, because they used the generical Arabian premise. There is no Arab group, arab king, arab nation, arab cities, arab writings - before this time.

Quote:

I would argue that this religion was always an Arabic monotheism

I would gladly accept this if any proof was attached. The religion of the Arabs before Islam came was polytheism - non Abarahamic and non-Mosaic.

IamJoseph · 08-15-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neutral

both Christianity and Islam were off shots from the evil seed Judaism

Which part is evil to you?

IamJoseph · 08-15-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Semites, though not precisely all Arabs.

Semite is a recent term.

avi · 08-16-2009, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

The pre-Islamic Arabs never followed the Abrahamic or Mosaic beliefs, and also have no biological connection with Abraham. The Arab race is 2,500 years old and Abraham lived 4000 years ago - there were no Arabs in that 1,500 year period,...
....
...both today's Arabs and Christians are NOT connected via a biological thread and are not descendents of Abraham....
....
There was no Arab group at this time, nor any area called Palestine pre-70 CE.

Mitochondrial DNA studies

Quote:

“Hundreds of genetic markers on the Y chromosome and the mitochondrial DNA, as well as most of the remaining genome, have confirmed the common origin of the different Jewish communities,” Boisselier said. “But recent studies also show that some of the similarities linking different Jewish groups to a common ancestry are found in a large portion of the Palestinian people as well, despite their more open breeding culture.”

Here's another reference for the lay public:
many studies with links, which refute the notion that Arabic speaking people are genetically distinct from Hebreic speaking people, i.e. data confirming that the two semitic groups share more than a common ancestral language.

With regard to Palestine, aka "Canaan", aka "Phoenicia", aka "Palaestina":

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Mariottini's blog

According to the genealogies in Genesis, Canaan was the fourth son of Ham and the grandson of Noah (Genesis 9:18). Canaan then became the eponymous ancestor of eleven sons, who eventually became known as the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land of Canaan, the original name of Palestine:....

See also
Origin of the western nations & languages By Charles Lassalle, written in 1883

I believe that Herodotus (fifth century BCE) mentions Palaestina, as does the seventh century BCE monarch SargonII, according to Wiki,

Quote:

The Assyrian emperor Sargon II called the same region Palashtu or Pilistu in his Annals.

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08-15-2009, 07:19 PM	#13
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Semites, though not precisely all Arabs.

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