Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 05-09-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazaroo

Seriosly, Roger, is there no papyrus left in lower Egypt? can you confirm that?

Not a lot, apparently. But I've not done a plant-by-plant search...

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Riverwind · 05-09-2007, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

An empty tomb yet they know it is his rather than another family member's or dignitary's?

Could it be anyone's tomb? No. It would have to have been someone of great wealth and authority.

Why Herod? Because Herod built the Herodium as a fortress complete with tomb, so say the source(s?). The lower palace was said to have been created specifically for his funeral, complete with a long processional "way". At the end of it, a turn is made and an ascent by stone steps to the tomb podium on the side of the hill about 3/4 of the way up (it appears...). It looks to me like Herod was copying the Egyptian Pharoahs and their pyramids, in his own fashion of course.

Again, why Herod? Who else would have had the money or authority to build such things and on "his property"?

It is most likely Herod's tomb. It will be interesting to see if they come up with any inscriptions and in what language(s).

Malachi151 · 05-09-2007, 09:36 AM

This just in: They found a mosaic depicting a giant star, being followed by three men on camels, and another one depicting the killing of hundreds of babies!

An inscription reads:

"As my final act, I tried to have the Messiah killed, but alas I failed"

andrewcriddle · 05-09-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Don't know, I've just heard several times that prior to the finding of the inscription that "some scholars" doubted the existence of Pilate. This may well have been another Christian foil for all I know, but I've heard the claim several times.

IIUC and IMS the (limited) truth behind this is that it was at one time suggested that early on a fictitious character called Pilate became part of the Jesus story on the basis of Jesus being pierced with a spear (Pilum). The Pilate in the Gospels was supposedly based on confusion between this Pilate and the historical Roman Governor.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 05-09-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Don't know, I've just heard several times that prior to the finding of the inscription that "some scholars" doubted the existence of Pilate. This may well have been another Christian foil for all I know, but I've heard the claim several times.

BTW:

http://www.catholic.org/internationa...y.php?id=24029

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle2524437.ece

We have an entire thread here: Did any skeptic think Pilate a myth? devoted to debunking that old apologist's tale.

Gamera · 05-09-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

There doesn't seem to be evidence that Herod was inside the tomb, since there are no bones and nothing that Josephus described as what Herod was wearing when buried (purple cloth, diadem, crown, etc).

The assumption thus far is that Herod must have been buried inside the 8-foot tomb after his death but marauding zealots later broke inside, broke apart whatever was in there, and removed bones, diadem, etc.

Can archeology do better right now than assert that it's the tomb of Herod because it's in the right place to be so, even if physical evidence is missing?

It would be nice to have the body, but I don't know if it would add much to the debate. We can't compare DNA, so it would just be a body. The clothes would be probative, but then, what important person is not buried in expensive clothes, and purple is the traditional color of royalty.

My point is the body or lack thereof would probably tell us little about whether the owner of the tomb was in fact Herod. Hopefully, they have some other method for establishing that. I think the fact that this appears to be the main tomb in a structure traditionally held to be Herod's fortress/palace is pretty dispositive on the issue.

Gamera · 05-09-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EthnAlln

Terrific! After 2000 years in his grave Herod may manage to inspire yet another massacre.

A tragic observation.

yummyfur · 05-09-2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

It would be nice to have the body, but I don't know if it would add much to the debate. We can't compare DNA, so it would just be a body. The clothes would be probative, but then, what important person is not buried in expensive clothes, and purple is the traditional color of royalty.

My point is the body or lack thereof would probably tell us little about whether the owner of the tomb was in fact Herod. Hopefully, they have some other method for establishing that. I think the fact that this appears to be the main tomb in a structure traditionally held to be Herod's fortress/palace is pretty dispositive on the issue.

Actually there is a bust of Herod that is from the 1st century BCE, so one could do a reconstruction of the head, to compare. Also the age of the person can be guesstimated by the bones, which could exclude Herod, as well as the sex.

Toto · 05-09-2007, 03:06 PM

The LA Times had a front page article this morning Israeli archeologist driven to find king's tomb: Ehud Netzer searched for 35 years before locating what he is certain is the grave of Herod the Great.

There is a video on the website and a photo gallery.

Ruiner · 05-09-2007, 03:20 PM

Suck on that, indeed, skeptics of Jes--- er, Herod!

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05-09-2007, 09:36 AM	#93
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	This just in: They found a mosaic depicting a giant star, being followed by three men on camels, and another one depicting the killing of hundreds of babies! An inscription reads: "As my final act, I tried to have the Messiah killed, but alas I failed"

05-09-2007, 03:06 PM	#99
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The LA Times had a front page article this morning Israeli archeologist driven to find king's tomb: Ehud Netzer searched for 35 years before locating what he is certain is the grave of Herod the Great. There is a video on the website and a photo gallery.

05-09-2007, 03:20 PM	#100
Ruiner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bong Hits 4 Jesus. KY Posts: 643	Suck on that, indeed, skeptics of Jes--- er, Herod!

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